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And — here are some of our latest threadjacks of interest – working mom questions asked by the commenters!
- If you’re a working parent of an infant with low sleep needs, how do you function at work when you’re in the throes of baby’s sleep regression?
- Should I cut my childcare down to 12 hours a month if I work from home?
- Will my baby have speech delays if we raise her bilingual?
- Has anyone given birth in a teaching hospital?
- My child eats everything, and my friends’ kids do not – how should I handle? In general, what is the best way to handle when your child has some skill/ability and your friend’s child doesn’t have that skill/ability?
- ADHD moms, give me your tips to help with things like behavior in the classroom, attention to detail, etc?
- I think I suffer from mom rage…
- My husband and kids are gone this weekend – how should I enjoy my free time?
- I’m struggling to be compassionate with a SAHM friend who complains she doesn’t have enough hours of childcare.
- If you exclusively formula fed, what tips do you have for in the hospital and coming home?
- Could I take my 4-yo and 8-yo on a 7-8 day trip to Paris, Lyon, and Madrid?
Anonforthis says
Looking for a gut check on verbal milestones. Our LO is 18 months and has about 10 words and several types of sounds. So certainly not advanced but fairly average? Pediatrician didn’t seem too worried at our last checkup. However, there’s an extensive family history of speech issues on DH’s side and DH’s sister (whose child has a very serious speech delay) keeps urging us to get LO evaluated. It probably wouldn’t hurt to have an appointment, but I’m not sure it’s really needed either.
Anonymous says
DH needs to tell his sister that you have a doctor and if you want her advice you will ask for it. Absolutely tell your doctor there is a family history of speech delay so you want to keep a particular eye on it, but your child was evaluated. By their doctor. Who said they were fine.
Anon says
As someone with a melding SIL, tell her to b*tt out. If your ped isn’t concerned I wouldn’t be either. Fwiw my ped did not refer to speech therapy until age 2 because she said until that age it was so common for kids to have an explosion and catch up overnight.
TheElms says
Are the sounds animal sounds? Those count as words. If they are other sounds that are word approximations that are used consistently, without prompting for the same word those count as well. So like dow-dow for down counts if it meets those criteria. 10 words at 18 months is the milestone, but I think average is more around 50 words. But I also think there is a lot of variation in what folks think is the milestone/average/advanced. You might want to follow speechsisters on Instagram for milestones and information on things you can do proactively to encourage speech if you don’t want to get an evaluation (or even if you do). I agree the evaluation won’t hurt, might give you some piece of mind, but isn’t needed. Also a lot of kids have huge language bursts around 18 months so you might be just shy of that and in 2 months your kid might be saying 100s of words.
Anon Lawyer says
I’m going to push back on that info from Speech Sisters – they always post those high averages with no citations, and they have a course to sell. There’s a huge range at 18 months and that’s fine, but 10 isn’t a “bare minimum” and I don’t think there’s much evidence out there that 50 is a true average.
Anon says
I don’t know who Speech Sisters are but the 50 word average comes from many sources I think (our ped quoted it) and honestly it strikes me as a bit low – most 18 month olds I’ve spent time with have more than 50 words even if they’re not very well-formed (e.g, ‘boo’ for book or whatever). But that doesn’t mean a kid who has fewer words is abnormal. There’s a difference between normal and typical. The speech milestones are less clear to me but I know for walking it’s “normal” to walk any time before 18 months, but a typical child walks around 12 months and it’s very rare to not be walking by 16 months even though it’s still considered normal (I think 99% of kids are walking by 16 months). I assume speech is similar where you can be in the bottom 1% and still be considered to be on the “normal” timeline because normal doesn’t mean average. I had a super late walker (18 months) so I looked up all the walking data when my kid was a toddler.
Anon Lawyer says
That’s funny because most of the 18-month-olds I have spent time with don’t really have many words – maybe a dozen at most – but obviously that’s anecdotal. That said, in general I think it’s right that there’s a huge range of normal and that it’s hard to tell what’s a sign of a bigger problem at that age. But I’ve also been told that comprehension is also a big factor at that age – you can tell some kids understand everything even if they don’t say much – and that the biggest red flags are things like not responding to their name.
Anon Lawyer says
(Also in general I just have a bugaboo about influencers who are trying to sell courses that turn every interaction with your kid into amateur therapy, but some of that is unfair on my part probably.)
TheElms says
SpeechSisters has a post where they talk about just this. They cite different sources for different ranges of what is considered normal. I think they are pretty transparent with what is considered the milestone, what is average, what is the range for average and what is considered better than average. Of course they don’t do this every time they post on this particular topic but I’ve followed them for about a year and I think I’ve seen it 3-4 times.
Anon says
I’d wait until 2. There’s often an explosion right at or after 18 months – very possible your LO has one at 19 months and you feel relief.
As a meddling SIL myself, I have older kids than my brother and SIL who waited until more like 3 to get speech therapy for their kid who clearly really needed it earlier (some of this was COVID but some was denial), so I have to put in a plug that she’s probably seen more kids with speech delays and is watchful for this and has good intentions. I didn’t bug them to get him evaluated but I wish I had at more like just after 2. Their ped did not recommend it then – but I still can’t understand him and he’s 4.5. So I’d take all opinions into account but yeah, 18 months is early!
fallen says
I think if pediatrician said it’s not to worry it’s likely fine? I don’t know much about milestones, but I have a good friend who is one of the smartest people I know/a professor at an Ivy League and he said he didn’t say a single word until age 3 in case that makes you feel better!
Anon says
I say this kindly but I asked a similar question when my kid was around 16 months and anecdotes like this were not helpful. Yes there are prodigies who say no worlds until after age 3 and turn out brilliant (I know someone like this too) but they are rare and no one wants to have a preschooler who can’t communicate. Statistically the vast majority of children who have few words at 18 months will be talking normally at 2 and that was much more comforting to me than hearing anecdotes about extremely late talkers when there was no evidence my kid would be one.
Anon Lawyer says
Also, having just a few words at 18 months IS normal!
Anon says
A few things that might help: with masking, a LOT of kids are “behind” in speech. They learn by lip-reading and they haven’t been able to lip-read except at home. Once masks came off in our state, our kiddo started using (some) words.
The “why” behind the prodigies who suddenly talk is the important thing. My husband, a professor at a most definitely not Ivy, didn’t talk until he could use full sentences. I preferred to watch people do things and learn how to do them before jumping in. My grandparents told me that I used to watch, and watch, and watch some more, then come in and figure out how to swim or play with toys.
Our kid is (poor thing) just like his parents. He was “behind” in crawling but once he learned, was great. He was “behind” in walking but literally went from crawling to independent walking in about three days – he skipped the cruising step. The first time he walked, he carried multiple toys. Am I worried? No – his patterns are consistent with a kid who is going to develop normally.
Jeffiner says
My daughter is the same way. She went from single words to sentences in about a week, and it was definitely closer to 2 than 18 months. She’s now 6 and HATES the reading exercises from school. I keep telling DH to be patient, she’s going to go from reading a couple words to chapter books.
Anonymous says
If OP has concerns and her pediatrician has brushed them off, I’d encourage her to get a second opinion. But I may be biased due to bad experiences with doctors + too many med mal courses in law school.
If OP is not worried and neither is her trusted pediatrician, her husband should thank his sister for her concern and tell her to back off.
Anon says
so i have twins. one was talking a ton at 18 months, the other one barely said anything and I expressed my concerns to the pediatrician and like many others have said there was an explosion shortly after her 2nd birthday. even now at age 3, one twin is more advanced in sentence construction than the other, but both are totally within range of normal. I agree wait til age 2 to get an evaluation. I will say that if you are planning on trying to get an evaluation through a state/city agency, you could start the process now because it can take forever to get in, but if you want a private evaluation you should be able to get that fairly quickly. But I also would not worry. I think DH’s sister is probably projecting her concerns about her own child onto you
NYCer says
I wouldn’t get an evaluation now. My youngest daughter had about 10 words at 18 months, and now at almost 2.5 is a little chatterbox, more advanced sentence structure than my older daughter had at this age, etc. She really started talking a lot more in the months after turning 2.
FVNC says
Agree with all the others that there really is no cause for concern at 18 months if your ped isn’t worried.
I’d only add that if there are *other* milestones that are causing concern, I think it’s okay to start pushing to get an evaluation now, so that your child can be seen by the time they turn two (wait lists can be several months long). If it’s JUST speech, and otherwise eye contact and other social interactions are a-okay, then there is likely no issue.
Both my kids were late-ish talkers. My older one needed interventions including speech therapy but ASD was a concern based on other issues going on. My younger one is completely typical and just talked a little on the late side of normal.
FVNC says
Oh, meant to add, my older one has a cousin around the same age who is very precocious and it was so hard not to compare! So I get the family pressure…it’s tough but just try to tune out as much as you can.
Anon says
If you’re not sure, maybe message the pediatrician on your online portal and ask – then you have peace of mind from the ped. I’m sure your SIL regrets waiting, but it also doesn’t necessarily mean your kid has a speech delay. The CDC milestone tracker says at 18 months a kid should say “several words” so I think you’re likely fine? For what it’s worth in my mom’s group it seemed like kids were all over the place with speech. My kid knew a ton of words at that age but then later he was slower than other kids (including some whose parents suspected speech delays) to speak in sentences.
Anon says
Your kid is OK – at that level won’t reach early intervention if they’re evaluated (says a mom whose kid is in early intervention), but average is 18 months is around 50 words (average! they’re hitting the milestone of 10 words which is the most important!).
At that level I would follow Speech Sisters on instagram and integrate some of their free tips into your everyday. Just sort of ‘plus up’ some interactions to supercharge the language explosion that happens between 18-24 months. The speech sisters (and really all SLPs) are kind of ‘extra’ personality-wise, but their tips are solid and I’ve seen them used in my (private and early intervention) speech therapy.
Pogo says
I would wait a few months and ping the ped again if you’re still concerned. My kid has about 20 words at 18mo but def some of those were animal sounds (or like, choo choo for train), and many of the rest were names of his inner circle (including the nanny’s husband, whom he calls Didi to this day – we still aren’t sure if he was trying to actually pronounce his name or it was like a play on daddy or what, but it’s adorable).
Anon says
I had a kid who met the minimum threshold for verbal skills for every single milestone. The minimum is 10 words by 18 months? She’d say her 10th word on the way to the appointment. Rinse and repeat for every verbal milestone. We had her evaluated a few times and each time they told us she hit the minimum and that kids have to be far behind to qualify for intervention (unless they are delayed in at least 2+ areas, which which wasn’t). At 8 yo she’s still not especially verbal for her age, though she’s a terrific bookworm and excels at math. She’s just unlikely to grow up to be an orator–it’s not her strength. She’s very efficient with her words.
My sense is that you can ask for an evaluation at 18 months, but he’s at the minimum so they won’t do anything. They are looking for major delays. Instead I’d find ways to work language skills into his daily life and then monitor. Interventions for speech at 18 mo are unlikely to be more effective than just working with him at home anyways.
AIMS says
This is my hands down favorite mascara since I was a teenager basically (with Clinique full & whatever being a close second, but why spend more?).
Question: my youngest is transition from his nursery school to a new place next month and I would like to get his current teachers a present. Obviously, cash or gift card and a heartfelt note will be included, but I would also like to add something else a little more personal because I just think that they are amazing. Any fun ideas? I imagine that they already have quite the collection of “best teacher” totes and mugs (or will soon) but would just to add a little something to say “you’re seriously incredible, thank you!”
anon says
On my kids’ last day at day care, they brought in a grocery store bouquet of flowers for each teacher and we took a quick phone photo of the kids giving it to them and texted it to them. The teachers were SO surprised and excited!
EDAnon says
Flowers sound like a great idea! I also give a thank you card with some cash (to teachers who are leaving. Neither of my kids left yet!).
Anonymous says
I ordered some thank you cards with pics of kiddo as a baby and at the current age and write a thoughtful thank you note to each teacher, with a gift card. Kids had something to give out, which they liked. I did this when each graduated from preschool (they were there age 6 months to age 5).
anon says
Hi all! Our family is going to a beach house with another family for a week. Our kids are the same ages and get along well half of the time. What tips can you share if you have done something like this? Also, any recommendations on meal planning? We will pack and bring most of the groceries and visit the local grocery store mid-week if we run out of staples.
Anonymous says
Don’t be afraid to do your own thing! You’ll naturally wind up with loads of together time/ don’t hesitate to say “we are off to the zoo today, leaving at 8:30 if you’d like to come” and then leave at 8:30 or to say “have fun at the beach this afternoon we are going to chill and watch a movie see you later.”
fallen says
We did this a few years ago and it was such a blast! For meals we just organized that one family was responsible for dinner every day and that worked sooo well, I would highly recommend. And for my days I just picked meals with 5 ingredients or less to keep things simple.
AwayEmily says
We just came back from a mini-vacation with another family. My recommendations would be to stock up on a LOT of snacks and fruit. Also do bring some toys — I don’t know the kids’ ages but things like Magnatiles, some toy cars, a few stuffed animals — you don’t need tons of stuff, but enough to keep them occupied. I’d also bring more books than you think you need (or stop by a used book store/library while you’re there). Reading a book is a good way of resetting and defusing squabbles.
GCA says
This is so much fun! Is it your first time vacationing together at all? We like to vacation with another family whose kids are close in age and who have similar parenting styles. This is key to harmony, as we are equally laid back in terms of things like scheduling, and there is zero judgment on either end.
Meals aren’t usually an issue when camping or at the beach, but the last time we visited a city together (Portland ME before the pandemic!) I definitely wish we had taken advantage of our kids’ slightly more adventurous palates to explore more food places separately rather than the same (delicious) pizza place three times. I would check in with the other family to see if they have any food requests, allergies or other restrictions. I’m guessing you know the other kids and their dietary restrictions well, but remind your kids not to offer food to friends without checking with their grownups first (for allergy reasons more than anything else).
If the kids still nap, mismatched nap/ sleep schedules might be an issue – you could plan to all hang out together at the beach in the morning + cookout in the late afternoon, and be on your own schedule for the hours in between. Definitely bring more books than you think you’ll need; more snacks than you think you’ll need; and more sunscreen.
Spirograph says
Have fun!
+1 to not being afraid to do your own thing. We’ve never vacationed with friends, but we do with family and being OK with going our separate ways is key. Each family always has some non-beach things to do, we give each other an overview at the beginning of week and quasi-coordinate which days we’re doing what so that we have a few beach days together and if we both want to go to a waterpark or whatever, we’re going the same day. We also have a ground rule that if we were going to the beach (our house is usually a block or two away, not actually on the sand), we just go whenever ready. Nothing is worse than waiting on people, and kids are so unpredictable with the amount of time it takes to get ready. We set up in roughly the same spot each day so we can find each other easily.
If dietary restrictions are a factor, it’s easiest to share your meal plan and ask which dinners you should plan for everyone to eat and which are your family only. Otherwise the alternating days thing can work well. We only planned dinners, and just had cereal, eggs, bread, pb and j, & sliced meat and cheese, and a bunch of crackers, fruit and snack-y vegetables for fend-for-yourself breakfast and lunch. Don’t overbuy groceries before you get there, but DO remember to bring things like condiments, small baggies of flour and sugar, and favorite spices/seasonings that are annoying to buy new because you use them up slowly. Be conservative with how many dinners you plan to cook on vacation. Takeout and pizza are much easier, and often snack dinner + ice cream is totally sufficient after a day at the beach.
We like to pick a night for each couple to go out to dinner sans kids. It makes it feel like more of a vacation when everyone gets a date night.
Portable breast pump help says
I have a Spectra S1 from my last pregnancy but am eligible to order another breast pump for this baby through insurance. Thinking it would be nice to have a portable one at home and for work trips – does anyone have experience with the S9 versus Ameda Mya versus Freemie Independence II? Thanks all!
If it matters, I have always pumped into Kiinde bags and used those for my storage.
AMama says
I had the S2 with my first so got the S9 with my second and really liked it. It’s not as powerful as the full sized models but it was great for mobility. I mostly used it during mat leave and on the weekends for my “extra” pump. For regular pumping sessions I stuck with my S2. It would also be great for travel.
Visiting Brandywine/ Central PA says
Has anyone been to Dutch Wonderland, Hersey Park and/or Sesame Place and can speak to how they compare? We are taking a trip to visit Longwood Gardens, and thought we should throw in something a little more geared towards the kids while we are in the area. Kids are 9, 4, and 1.5 year old. And/ or tips for visiting or anything else that might be fun for ax extended weekend in the area?
We like hiking, ice cream, fun food finds that we can take home, water, places to run around, climb and let our energy out. And sometimes just hanging out in hotels.
Anon says
i have never been to Dutch Wonderland, but I would say that the 9 year old is probably a bit old for Sesame Place, and the 1.5 year old is probably a bit young for Hershey. For the 4 year old, probably depends on what type of rides he/she likes and height. Hershey has a height chart with each ride available online.
AIMS says
Sesame Place has a water park component that would be fun for the 9 year old, I think.
Anonymous says
The 4-year old would LOVE Dutch Wonderland, but 9 is too old and honestly 1.5 is too young to really get much out of it. I’d skip that one unless you are OK to split up the group.
The Turkey Hill Experience would be fun for 9 and 4 year old! It’s an ice cream “museum” with tasting at the end, and you can do an experience to make your own flavors or something.
Check Strasburg RR for any events the weekend you’re doing to see if there’s anything of interest and if anyone is into trains.
Anonymous says
We did Hershey and Sesame a few weeks ago. Measure your kids before you finish planning- your 1.5 year old will likely not be able to go on much at Hershey. See if your 9 and 4 year old are tall enough to ride together.
If you are choosing between the 3, your oldest will have the most fun at Hershey, your younger two will like Sesame better. If you are at Sesame, make sure to try and catch a few minutes of the parade. It’s not worth camping out for, but it is pretty cute.
Also check the hours. When we went, Hershey opened at 11, which might be awfully late if your youngest still naps. You can do the factory tour first, which we did, but it’s still not a lot of morning time.
Anon says
Growing up in the area in the 80’s and 90’s, the order was Dutch Wonderland / Sesame Place < Hershey < Dorney < Six Flags < Disney
The upside of Hershey was that your parents could talk the school into excusing you for a weekday trip by telling them Chocolate World + Zoo = Educational.
Anon says
We loved Dutch Wonderland with our 4 yo, whereas Disney Wolrd resulted in tantrum after tantrum. It was just too much. Too many rides. Too many lines. Too many people. Dutch Wonderland had no lines so she could just run up to a ride and get on. It was an awesome day.
I agree with others that Dutch Wonderland is too young for a 9 yo. My thrill-loving 5.5 yo even felt a bit old. She wanted bigger rides, though she was small 5.5 yo and wouldn’t meet the height requirement for the fast rides at Hershey.
Spirograph says
I have not been to Sesame Place, but can speak to Dutch Wonderland and Hershey Park.
9 is too old for Dutch Wonderland; the sweet spot is really 3-6. We went in summer 2019 and there was one rollercoaster that only my oldest could ride and he was 6 at the time. There were several rides that he was too big for, but he’s really tall. The almost-3 and 4.5 year olds loved it. The splash/water park at Dutch Wonderland is good for all ages, but it’s small.
Hershey Park has something for everyone. We’ve been a couple times with kids ages 1.5-7.5 and always had fun. The Chocolate World stuff is good to do once, but extremely kitsch; the amusement park has everything from kiddie rides to legit thrill rides that any rollercoaster-lover would appreciate. We have not done that water park, but it looks like a lot of fun.
Anon says
I haven’t been to Chocolate World in >25 years and still get the jingle stuck in my head sometimes.
Paging twin mom says
The other week a mom with twins and 2 older kids posted asking whether she will ever be able to watch her older kid’s soccer game without worrying the twins are losing a limb…I commented then, but wanted to comment again now – we just returned from our first flying trip since December 2019 (our twins were 19.5 months then) and now they are 3. If someone had told me when they were 19 months that one day I would’ve been able to read a book and DH would be able to take a brief nap while flying with our kids I never would’ve believed them…but it’s true, it does happen, so hang in there!
Anon says
I don’t have twins but have had similar experiences flying solo with my now 3 year old this summer. It’s crazy how much easier this age is than almost 2.
No Face says
No twins here, but this morning I told my oldest to wash her hands and brush her teeth. Then I just…left the bathroom and she did it herself. Mind blowing!
I also read a novel for about 4 hours yesterday. I couldn’t believe it.
ifiknew says
My 4 year old managed to tell me that her stomach doesn’t feel good and throw up in the toilet (on two seperate occasions). Insane that this a milestone, but for so long, it was just grab the baby and get to the tile or hardwood and not on the carpet or rugs.
Anonymous says
This is definitely a huge and underappreciated milestone.
Anon says
The learning to throw up in a bag was a critical milestone for us with my carsick prone now 4 YO. She figured it out at 18 months and I had never been so happy in my life, because I thought it would be a kindergarten thing. Then at a restaurant recently she said her tummy hurt and asked me for a bag (I thought they were unrelated requests, since we were not in a car) and sure enough, all over the restaurant floor (thankfully outdoors).
Cb says
Some friends with a very grouchy baby (their words) came over a few weeks ago. I was on the porch reading my book and my 4 year old was upstairs having his quiet time in his room, playing happily solo. I like to think it gave them some hope that things would be easier someday.
Anonanonanon says
Yes it really is always nice to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Of course, when I had my first, I wanted to burst into tears every time someone said “it will be better in a couple of years” because that felt like an eternity, but now I catch myself doing the same thing!
Cb says
I had a big interview today and my son cuddled me beforehand, I told him I need to tell people why they should give me a job “because you are very clever and give the best mama cuddles!”
AIMS says
So sweet! Good luck!
Anon says
Awww
EDAnon says
You’ll do great! And that’s so sweet. My son loves telling me I am a good mom when I am having a rough day. And it really helps!
Anonymous says
Building off the above thread- Sesame place for a 22 month old?
Anonymous says
I would wait. Check the heights. I would say 2.5+ if it is not a kid accompanied by an older sibling.
It’s not cheap and I think you’ll get more out of it in the spring.
Anonymous says
Actually- Under 2 kiddos are free. I wouldn’t go out of my way but if it’s one adult and a free kid, it’s on my ~$50 and they might get a kick out of the stuff the can do. Many rides are 36”+ so the little guys are free for a reason ;).
Anonymous says
It would be 4 adults lol. We are all dying to go. But will wait a year!
anon says
My son (13 months) is at the toddler playground with his nanny, and it occurred to me that if she dropped dead of a stroke (or was otherwise incapacitated), there is nothing on her that would identify who he is. She has her own driver’s license, but I don’t think there’s anything in her wallet or anything that includes his name, our contact info, etc. Should I get him a little kid ID bracelet? Ask her to keep a card with our info in her wallet?
EDAnon says
I’d never thought of that! My first daycare took “school pictures” of the kids and printed up little ID cards. My husband still has it in his wallet. It was just printed on photo paper, but I bet you could get something like that.
Anonymous says
I think a card with his info is a good idea. But, the police are pretty prepared for this type of situation. Occasionally in our area a child may get out late at night or early in the morning while parents are sleeping. The police desseminate this info far and wide on Facebook and the local news. CPS would take the child until you realized he was missing, at which point you would call the police. But your nanny randomly dropping dead is a very very small risk.
Anon says
RoadID makes IDs for kids. I would recommend that you do NOT put his name on it (stranger danger), just your contact information and the contact information of trusted friends or family.
IHeartBacon says
I had this same fear and had my nanny carry a photo of my kid in her wallet. On the back of the photo, I wrote that she was the kid’s nanny and the parents’ contact info was xxx.
EDAnon says
I have the cutest story to share! This weekend, I completed a triathlon (my time was nothing to brag about but it was fun!). My husband watched the kids (almost 3 and 5) while I did it. My 5yo got chatting with a family who was there for another racer. They offered to cheer for me so he taught them my name and pointed me out as I came in. They all cheered and yelled my name. And the kids had a poster! It was AMAZING. Best weekend ever.
Spirograph says
This is adorable, and congrats! I haven’t done a triathlon or any other races (my times were also nothing to brag about) since my kids were born and you’re kind of making me want to get back into it. My kids did stand up and yell “Yay mommy! Great job!!” at a piano recital a couple years ago, but kid cheering would be way more appropriate on a race route.
EDAnon says
That’s so cute!
And I recommend getting back into it. I found it rewarding to use my body for something for me, rather than “just” something for my kids.
Anonymous says
Congrats on a great accomplisment, and that is super adorable.
Anon says
Did anyone see the article at Vox about Emily Oster? Apparently she’s hated by some beyond this board.
Anon says
The first handful of paragraphs of the article explain the problem: she’s the only one aggregating DATA. Public policy these days is a complete hash, with people who get into their little corners and wedge the issue of the day into their one-dimensional talking points. Oster is one of the few people doing things like we did twenty years ago: looking at the data and drawing conclusions. If she is “hated by some beyond this board,” maybe they hate someone who operates that way.
Anonymous says
There is a huge difference between hating someone and deciding based upon a critical evaluation of a person’s work that she is using a convenience sample that is probably biased, is mischaracterizing risks and benefits, and is more worried about getting famous than she is about doing solid work. The Vox piece is relatively nuanced, especially in its explanation of the dustup over the Atlantic article comparing unvaccinated kids to vaccinated elderly people. The problem is that she just doesn’t get the science or the numbers right, or communicate nearly as effectively to a popular audience, as people like Zeynep Tufecki, Leana Wen, and Lynsey Marr.
Anon Lawyer says
I think she communicates very well and that’s a different question from whether she’s right, on some level and also part of the problem. I wish more of her critics would adopt her approach and explain *why* she’s wrong instead of just saying she is. I also think that her conclusions often tend to be what’s convenient for her but at least I can follow her sources and reach that conclusion for myself.
Anonymous says
This is exactly the problem. Her conclusions tend to be what is convenient for her personally. On the parenting stuff that focuses mostly on individual risk-benefit calculations, this is problematic because it takes what ought to be her most valuable message, that doctors and society completely ignore real risks to parents and children such as maternal exhaustion and postpartum depression, and conflates it with “I just want to have a glass of wine with dinner while I am pregnant.” This is counterproductive, as it makes moms who don’t want to be dehumanized as incubators and milk cows look like they fall into the same category as people monsters who refuse to give up alcohol while pregnant, which gives doctors and society another excuse to continue completely dismissing mothers’ personhood and needs. On COVID, this tendency has led Oster to recommend bad policies for society as a whole.
Anon Lawyer says
See, but this is the kind of critique that isn’t helpful. If she’s a monster for having a glass of wine with dinner while pregnant, give us the studies that say that a glass of wine is a real risk, don’t just throw around labels. THAT’S the approach people are frustrated with. I didn’t drink while pregnant for a variety of reasons and I have, on that issue, seen studies that counter her conclusions. But a lot of people do what you’re doing and just call her a monster without ever saying why she’s wrong.
Anon Lawyer says
Also if experts aren’t going to respect women’s personhood because a single woman wrote a book saying it’s ok to drink a little while pregnant, they weren’t going to anyway.
anon says
lol at “monsters.” ok, Karen.
Anonymous says
FFS, she goes into the rirsks of drinking in her book. I’m not going to look it up and type it all out here. The point is that she causes people to conflate an actual individualized nuanced risk-benefit calculation with doing whatever is convenient. You admit yourself that her conclusions are all about what’s convenient for her. That’s the problem.
Anonymous says
OK, anon, you are missing the point. I am not the Karen. It is the Karens who are going to put people who drink while pregnant and women who don’t want to EBF because of the terrible burden in the same category and call both monsters.
Anon Lawyer says
Well, in her book she goes into the risks and benefits and concludes there’s no risk to a small amount. I’ve seen other studies that call that into question (though to be fair, they might post-date her book). But instead of bringing up those studies, you get these critiques (like yours!) that say “she’s a horrible person for suggesting alcohol could ever be ok in pregnancy” and that’s exactly the kind of thing I – and I think a lot of other women – are fed up with.
Anonymous says
There is no benefit to alcohol in pregnancy.
Anon says
There’s a benefit to not having to give up something you really enjoy. I’m a light drinker and giving up alcohol was easy for me so I didn’t have a sip while pregnant. I didn’t real care about reading Oster’s risk assessment around alcohol because there was no benefit to me to drinking while pregnant. But if it was recommended that women give up chocolate completely it would have been a huge sacrifice for me and I would have been interested in hearing any data that suggested chocolate was safe in moderation because being able to have even a small amount would have been a great benefit to me.
Anon Lawyer says
I feel like the “there’s no benefit to X” argument is exactly the way you get recommendations like the GW midwives who say you should just not eat any white flour or added sugar in pregnancy because there’s no benefit to it. No, the benefit is to not drive yourself completely crazy for no reason. As I said, I didn’t drink either, but after looking at the risk, I did eat sushi sometimes (for instance). It didn’t seem like a significant risk in actuality given the benefits (which is enjoying sushi because it’s amazing).
AwayEmily says
I think it’s a good take and I definitely don’t see the main takeaway as “everyone hates her.” FWIW I don’t agree with all her conclusions but I’m glad her voice is a part of the conversation — in pregnancy, COVID, and beyond. I think big problems (including school reopening) where there is not a clear “right answer” are best tackled by a range of people working together — epidemiologists, doctors, teachers, policymakers, etc.
Anonymous says
I take it you have never been to an academic conference. I am used to having people rip apart my work right in front of me, even when I’m not the one speaking, all on the basis of their own faulty interpretations. I am sure Oster has gotten over it. Her fans need to get over it too.
OP says
I’ve absolutely had my academic writing ripped apart, but if the critics can’t bring the evidence they can take a long walk off a short pier into shark infested waters.
That’s the thing about many people’s general dislike of her that I hate. They say, her data is bad and they say she’s a “convenience” parent but they never bring the evidence. I’m a big fan of hers personally.
But it’s like the woman who wrote in the NYTimes after Expecting better: she’d lost her pregnancy to listeria and freaked out that Oster would dare to explain tHe listeria lunch meat connection. I read the book and completely changed my risk assessment of lunch meat: I had been thinking turkey was “healthy” and it’d be okay to eat occasionally. But after reading the book I avoided turkey and cantaloupe (and other melons). I ate the occasional piece of sliced ham that had been cooked. I was safer (avoiding cantaloupe) than my doctor recommended and I understood it all so when I did cheat and eat lunch meat I certainly didn’t eat the much riskier turkey.
It’s not my fault people have bad reading comprehension.
Anonymous says
It is actually a technical criticism of her work that she relies on a “convenience sample.” A convenience sample is whatever data she could obtain easily. Convenience samples are unlikely to be representative of the population because the entities from which it is easy to get data usually differ from the population average in a systematic way. For example, school districts that have the resources to collect data and respond to Oster’s requests are likely to be wealthier than districts that do not.
Paging KH and fallen says
KH, if you’re still up for chatting about your job as a management consultant at a B4, could you email me at my burner email: purpleorchid780 @ gmail.com whenever you have some time? No rush since I know you’re on maternity leave so whenever is fine!
fallen: thank you so much for sharing your story. I’m so glad you found something you love and it’s working out so great for you. Congrats on getting a PhD! Everything you said really resonates with me and I’ve wondered the same thing. I do love having a career and being financially independent but I just wish I was doing something I could get excited about each day (or most days). I kind of think I just need a new challenge. Thank you for the book suggestions as well. I went to law school with very idealistic goals and I think I just went on a path that is far removed from that and I’m not sure where to go now.
anon for this says
Here to vent. Just found out one of the substitute teachers at our kids daycare is unvaccinated. Apparently has been this way for a while, but most of the parents including us were under the misimpression that all staff was vaccinated (I guess because all regular staff is). Corporate policy does not mandate vaccines so the director can’t pull the teacher on her own. We are in a high vaccine uptake area without a ton of cases, but still, the trend in the last few weeks is not good and I expect it to get worse before it gets better. I’m so tired of the risk balancing.
EDAnon says
I would be really upset, too. Do they have to wear masks?
With delta, we are being much more cautious. I am sad about it but grateful we had a few months of more normalcy.
Anon says
At least you know the regular teachers are vaccinated? I’d be pleasantly surprised if I found out over half our teachers had gotten the vaccine. *Cries in red state*
anonn says
same. If schools and daycares required vaccines around here they’d have to shut down. They can’t find enough qualified staff as it is.
Anonymous says
In my state/area, daycare staff feels that they were forgotten about when everything shut down. Basically that they were essential workers no one cared about. And not getting vaccinated seems to be their way of getting back at the world. Frustrating.
Anon says
Talk about cutting off their nose to spite their face! They’re certainly endangering others as well, but the person they’re most endangering is themselves.
Anonymous says
OP here – thanks. This reminds me that early on we were comfortable with masks and testing, which they are still doing. It’s still frustrating and this will prompt us to keep a closer eye on things.
Anon says
Yeah masks and testing are a lot better than nothing! And especially with the Delta variant, vaccination isn’t the silver bullet people were making it out to be. We’ve actually cut way back on our kid’s contact with vaccinated adults for that reason. We’re still seeing grandparents because they’re cautious and seeing them is really important to all of us. But we’re not taking our kid to hang out indoors with adult friends of ours we know are vaccinated anymore. A vaccinated daycare teacher can still get mildly ill and spread it, we really don’t know how well vaccines prevent transmission especially with Delta. Honestly, I think I’d prefer masks and no vax to vaxxed and no masks (but obviously vaxxed and masked would be ideal).
SF says
Has anyone joined the networking group Chief? Is it worthwhile/worth the fee? I would mostly join to hopefully help with my biz development (I work at a comms agency). Any thoughts welcome.