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I’d characterize most of my jewelry as subdued with a twist. This variation on a bar necklace will play nicely with a few pieces I already own.
This 10-inch, textured bar pendant necklace is made with 24k gold plate and handcrafted by artisans in Kenya. This necklace works on its own or layered with other pendant necklaces. It also pairs equally well with a button-front blouse for work or a V-neck tee for the weekends.
Soko’s Meta Bar Pendant Necklace is on sale for $76 (marked down from $108) at Revolve.
Sales of note for 4.18.24
(See all of the latest workwear sales at Corporette!)
- Ann Taylor – 50% off full-price dresses, jackets & shoes; $30 off pants & skirts; extra 50% off sale styles
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything; extra 20% off purchase
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- J.Crew – Mid-Season Sale: Extra 60% off sale styles; up to 50% off spring-to-summer styles
- Lands’ End – 30% off full-price styles
- Loft – Spring Mid-Season Sale: Up to 50% off 100s of styles
- Nordstrom: Free 2-day shipping for a limited time (eligible items)
- Talbots – Spring Sale: 40% off + extra 15% off all markdowns; 30% off new T by Talbots
- Zappos – 29,000+ women’s sale items! (check out these reader-favorite workwear brands on sale, and some of our favorite kids’ shoe brands on sale)
Kid/Family Sales
- Carter’s – Up to 70% off baby items; 50% off toddler & kid deals & 40% off everything else
- Hanna Andersson – Up to 50% off spring faves; 25% off new arrivals; up to 30% off spring
- J.Crew Crewcuts – Up to 60% off sale styles; up to 50% off kids’ spring-to-summer styles
- Old Navy – 30% off your purchase; up to 75% off clearance
- Target – Car Seat Trade-In Event (ends 4/27); BOGO 25% off select skincare products; up to 40% off indoor furniture; up to 20% off laptops & printers
Anonymous says
What if I prefer my kids not be indoctrinated with religion at school?!?
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
Ugh yesterday’s SCOTUS decision brought back some weird memories of “See You At the Pole” from the 1990s for me – I did not understand it then, I don’t understand the need now. As a religious person and non-Christian, I was thrilled with the progress I thought we were making in many places (not all) of accepting and understanding different religions and actual “religious freedom” (not what the right has made it).
Anonymous says
oh man, I remember See You At The Pole, and it was really big at my school. I am Christian (but United Methodist, so basically the most you-do-you type of Christian) and was actually fairly religious at the time, but the demonstrativeness of it bothered me and I never participated. Same with the WWJD bracelet fad. ugh.
I am not a lawyer, but my uninformed take on this was sure, free exercise of religion means the coach should be allowed to pray whenever/wherever he wants as long as he’s not being disruptive or expecting others to participate. But I strongly suspect if the coach had rolled out a prayer mat and faced Mecca on the 50 yard line instead of assuming a typical Christian prayer posture, that this would have been a different decision, and *that* is messed up.
Anon says
He was having the kids participate, that’s the whole issue.
Anon says
if it makes you feel better I had some pretty religious teachers at my public school who would pray and talk about jesus etc. I mostly didn’t care / grew into the atheist I am today. While I disagree that religion has a place in public schools, I also think kids learn religion at home/house of worship and I doubt being exposed to a devout teacher/coach makes a big difference.
Cora says
+1
My parents went to Catholic schools because they were the best schools in their area. It made no difference and they are not Catholic. My sister went to a Catholic pre school, and tbh I don’t even think she really remembers it.
Anon says
Yep – same. We were non-denominational Christian but went to Catholic schools because they were good in our area. Didn’t change my views at all.
Anon says
+1 I think being forced to recite the anthem with “under God” in it made me of an atheist for sure.
Anonymous says
I’m not an athiest but I agree with all this.
Anonymous says
It doesn’t. I’m religious we pray at home we are at church every Sunday. I still don’t want public schools being about religion.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
+1. I’m religious. I’m NOT Christian. I think folks forget that prayer in school, when it was a thing, really isolated and made non-Christians feel like the other. Tons of people who are not of a religion go to a faith-based school of a different religion, but to me, that is different as it’s an overt choice to be in a private, faith-based environment vs. putting faith into a state-funded, public environment.
I have not read the opinion, so I may be missing something.
Anonymous says
+1. He was also inviting players to pray with him after the game. Given that he controls playing time (and possibly chances at college scholarships) for players on his team, I would think that at least some felt social pressure to join in.
Anonymous says
I am religious (UMC). I don’t want faith taught in school, but I’d like to see more instruction on the influence of various religions on history, literature, philosophy, criticism, the arts, and culture in general. My high school student has only learned about the Reformation in confirmation class at church, never in history class.
Anon says
That’s weird. I remember learning about the Reformation in high school history class and I went to a very mediocre public high school.
Anonymous says
A mediocre public high school 20 or 30 years ago would far outperform a “good” public high school these days.
Anon says
I totally disagree with that; our local public high school delivers much higher level academics than my school did 20 years ago. The expectations the teachers have for even the ‘average’ kids are so far above the expectations my school had of the honors kids. Of course it’s possible this high school was itself better 20 years ago, but I think it’s blatantly false to say that a great school today is worse than a mediocre school today.
Anon says
*than a mediocre school 20+ years ago, I mean.
Anonymous says
I agree, I think it’s fairly impossible to understand the world without understanding religion’s role in it, and the intersection of religion with all those manifestations of culture is an important critical thinking exercise. Sometimes I question whether critical thinking is a desired outcome from public school…I do not remember learning about The Reformation or any other religious history in public school, but it’s entirely possible that the administrators assumed everyone learned that at church so why bother? when they set the curriculum.
My husband is anti-organized religion, but doesn’t mind if I take our kids to church because he thinks (and I agree) a passing knowledge of Christian theology is necessary to make sense of the America today and Western world history in general.
Anonymous says
Religious history IS history, because religion and politics have always been closely intertwined.
Anon says
I realize you’re responding to the concern raised by the OP, and maybe I’m preaching to the choir, but the point isn’t just that kids could be indoctrinated. I’d guess that most kids with other views being expressed at home wont be indoctrinated. But if kids don’t participate, they’ll feel that they don’t belong and may be treated as lesser than by the coach. Someone posted yesterday (maybe on the regular site) about a former boss praying and not requiring anyone to participate, but giving better assignments to the coworkers who prayed with boss. Not to mention that prayer just doesn’t belong at public schools, regardless of whether it actually influences the kids or not.
Anonymous says
This. It’s not just about indoctrination, it’s about coercion.
Anon says
Eh, I’d read the actual case. I don’t love the decision, but when I actually read the decisions, I found the headlines misleading. It seems to be that the coach was leading prayers, the district told him to stop, he stopped. He then took up praying privately (none of his actual team attended said prayers), and they then fired him for that. I don’t love it, but it seems like a pretty specific situation focused more around his exercise of religion personally (which I have no issue with, and I’d worry that if that was prevented, we’d go down the road some of Europe has, with banning Hijabs and the like).
Anon says
He wasn’t fired. He was put on paid administrative leave and did not put it for a new contract.
Anon says
Yeah, but still – he was put on leave for praying privately. I don’t love the entire series of events, but I don’t inherently disagree with SCOTUS about private religious expression on school property being a very slippery slope. I don’t love it because it STARTED as group prayer – like surely there were better cases to make the point that private religious expression by school personnel is okay?
FWIW, I’m furious about the Roe decision, but this one does not strike me as nearly as problematic when I understood the context/details around the case.
Anonymous says
It wasn’t private.
Anonymous says
And he did not stop. He continued praying in public and inviting kids to join him.
Anon says
Yeah, the problem is that it wasn’t private.
Anonymous says
Yeah, this wasn’t like he was quietly saying grace to himself before eating lunch in the school cafeteria.
Anonymous says
Excuse you? I did read the actual case. I’m literally a an education lawyer.
Anon says
Students said they felt coerced to join him in prayer. That’s the issue for me. I don’t mind someone praying publicly, but when it’s an authority figure like a coach the kids are going to feel pressured to join in to keep the coach happy.
Spirograph says
This is a really good point that I hadn’t thought of when I admittedly read some headlines and skimmed. Thanks
Anon says
Yeah that was the main reasoning behind prior cases that went the other way, that it’s not about the coach’s personal prayer it’s about how students feel pressured to join in because you need to keep a coach happy to get playing time, letters of rec, etc. But in this case the Court abandoned that logic.
Anon says
Did you read the Sotomayor dissent with included photo showing that the majority opinion straight up lied about the facts? He was not praying privately.
Fallen says
My son (just turned 4) has been doing swim lessons for a year with meh progress. The places he was at before and private instructors would engage with his shenanigans (adjust googles, not go as much face underwater, etc) and he bossed them around haha. After talking to a lot of moms, I signed him for a one-week intensive for a few weeks this summer at a place that is known for teaching kids to swim very quickly. He screamed his entire lesson, but the instructor pushed him and seemed to know what he was doing (he was the owner of this well-regarded swim school and in his 40s vs random 20-30 year old college kids at other places!) I felt awful having him be so upset. Any thoughts on whether we should stick with it or continue the more gentle type lessons?
anonM says
Personally, I would not continue. Swim lessons are important, yes. But so is bodily autonomy. This raises so many red flags to me, and if you do continue, please consider whether this “well-regarded” instructor has any unsupervised 1:1 time with your little one. Is a screaming kiddo worth having faster “progress”? FWIW, my 4yo had a huge increase in swimming ability from 4 to now at 4.5, so patience about his abilities may be more developmentally appropriate.
anonM says
Sorry, to clarify – red flag about the instructor/format! Bodily autonomy/abuse prevention is very serious to me and paramount to me based on my life experiences, but when I re-read that I wanted to make sure I was clear that I’m not saying anything is wrong with you as a parent!
Anon says
I would stick with the gentle lessons. Four is young. It didn’t click with my oldest until he turned 6 and *willingly* would put his face in/wanted to go underwater. Then he basically learned to swim in a couple lessons.
Anonymous says
4 is very young for independent swimming. I’d stick with the gentle lessons.
Anon says
At what age did you feel comfortable leaving kid home alone for 1-2 hours while you did errands?
Anonymous says
10
Anon says
1-2 hours is a long time. My parents started briefly leaving me home alone when I was 6 or 7 (I know it was a different era) but that was so my mom could run to the grocery store to pickup my dad, who’d done the shopping (my dad doesn’t drive, so he’d walk there but couldn’t walk home with all the groceries). But that was like 15-20 minutes alone. I agree 9 or 10 is about right for an hour or more.
CPA Lady says
I think this is a kid by kid decision and also has a lot to do with where you live and how far away these errands are (and what your state laws are). IMO there are a couple things you have to think about in terms of your child’s disposition: 1. how likely they are to follow rules when everything is normal and 2. how likely they are to act appropriately in case of emergency or potential emergency.
I feel certain that I theoretically could leave my 7, almost 8 year old home by herself for an hour or two because she is a cautious rule follower. (Note: I would never actually do this.) But if I did, she would just chill and watch tv and eat snacks, color, read books, etc. I live in a safe, suburban neighborhood with multiple neighbors that I know, about 5 minutes away from the grocery store and other places I typically run errands. I could get back home quickly if she needed something, or call someone to check on her.
Would I even contemplate this if I lived in a rural area and had to drive 45 minutes- an hour one way to run errands? Heck no. Would I even contemplate it if she were a daredevil or likely to take the opportunity to run amok unsupervised? Nope.
In reality, I agree that 10 seems like a good minimum age.
Spirograph says
Huh. I live somewhere similar, but I had not considered leaving my generally cautious, responsible, 9 year old home alone for an extended time. That may be because that would necessarily mean leaving at least one younger kid home with him… We leave the kids home alone and go for walks in the neighborhood (making various 10-15 min loops), and I’ve definitely left them playing on their computers or outdoors with neighbors to do a <30 min trip. If they're playing Minecraft, I could probably leave them for hours before they noticed, but it somehow doesn't feel right to me yet.
CPA Lady says
I mean, I said I would never actually do it. I just theoretically think everything would probably be fine if I did, *given my particular set of circumstances *.
Things are definitely different if you’re putting a kid that age in charge of a younger sibling. That brings a whole different dynamic into play, and I doubt I would feel comfortable with it.
And to answer the person below me, I have never lived in a truly urban area, so I have no input as far as that goes. I’ve just lived in rural and suburban areas and wanted to point out how I would feel differently about leaving a child at home alone in those two locations based on my own experience.
Anonymous says
Urban neighborhoods can also be safe places where people know their neighbors
Anonymous says
Nobody said they can’t. The previous poster is clearly contrasting their neighborhood (suburban) with rural areas where things are further away. Knowing neighbors was also not brought up.
Anonymous says
“with multiple neighbors that I know”
Anon says
I’m comfortable leaving my chill, rule-following 9-year-old home while I go grocery shopping or run errands (~10m away) during the day for up to an hour or so. They have to stay mostly in the living room where I can see them with baby monitor we use to keep an eye on the dogs and they have to answer when I talk to them via either the monitor or Alexa. We also practice to make sure they know how to call me using the Alexa (no home phone). I also set the house alarm when I leave, so they know they can’t open/close doors or go outside. I also remind them that they can run across the street to our neighbors if there was an emergency. I generally don’t leave them home alone when it’s dark out.
Anon says
You check your state laws and comply with the minimum requirements. Then start with short time periods and low stakes, and work up to see what you and your child are comfortable with
Anon says
Yeah, it’s illegal to do this in some states before age 12 (which I think is crazy, but I wouldn’t break the law in my state).
Anonymous says
I leave my 8.5 year old for something like 45 min without pause. 1-2 hours I would do if I was in town and reachable (eg at a sibling’s soccer game). I would not leave town.
Anon says
8
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
PT is coming today for an assessment for DS #2 (now 18 months and not walking unsupported…but he can climb on furniture, NEAT). Please send me all good vibes!
Anonymous says
I hope you get some answers! FWIW, my LO was climbing on furniture before she was walking.
Water Park says
What are your best tips for bringing elementary-school aged kids to a water park? 2 kids, 2 parents, all strong swimmers, one kid (age 9) has a tendency to want to ride the bigger rides but gets nervous , while the other, younger kid is totally gung ho (and super-excited to finally be tall enough for most this year).
Clementine says
Neon colored hats and/or swim shirts. Seriously, it’s so much easier to pick my kid out of a crowd with the day glo tie dyed green hat he picked out. Also, plan to stop and hydrate more than you think and don’t be surprised if everyone is exhausted and ready for bed at 6pm.
Spirograph says
In general: Wear rashguards/swim shirts. re-sunscreen face and neck at least 2x. Consider aquasocks/water shoes so everyone’s feet aren’t destroyed by the end of the day.
How big is the water park? We go to a small one with extended family every year and this is what works for us: Bring the folding wagon to haul all the towels, water bottles, sunscreen, etc etc (and food if it’s allowed) and claim a centrally-located table as “home base.” We may put phones and wallets in a locker, but we take our chances with the rest of our stuff. We have a hard rule that kids need to be with an adult at all times. Kids can loop slides that feed into the same splash pool as many times as they want and it’s totally fine if they go up and down at a different pace than the adult with them, but they cannot leave that attraction without the adult. Also, adults need to actually talk to each other if the kid switching from one adult to another (eg, kid can’t say “i’m coming to the splash zone with you, grandma!” and disappear. grandma needs to tell dad that she is taking the kid and he needs to acknowledge.)
We usually go on the big full-family tube slides first when we’re all together, then split off depending on where people want to go next and let the kids lead. If someone wants to go in the lazy river or play in the splash zone for a while, one parent stays there. It’s a small enough park that we’ll naturally cross paths and remix who’s with whom several times throughout the day and coordinate on when we’re going to take a lunch break. Somewhere big like 6 Flags, you’ll probably want to designate a meeting time & place for lunch and to either switch kids or all hang out together some more.
Anne-on says
Be ready and able to split up and make it a total NBD (don’t shame or pressure the 9-yr old into doing anything because the rest of the family wants to). Second the point about SUPER bright swim outfits. Bring cheap water shoes/flip flops as you may have to store them in public (not locked) cubbies along with hats for the bigger rides. I always make everyone wear rashguards as we are all super fair and tend to burn even with re-application of sunblock – in truly warm weather they dry quickly, and we take them off to dry off when we eat if necessary. Pay for a locker and/or lounge chairs so you have a spot to relax at some point and you don’t need to worry about losing IDs/credit cards/changes of clothing. Drink more water and apply more sunblock than you think you need. Have fun!
Anon says
I usually just lock my wallet in my car and put my iPhone in one of those plastic cases so I don’t need a locker. Then you can also take pictures, which is fun. I agree about covering up as much as possible (I wear rashguards and shorts) and reapplying sunscreen more than you think you need to.
Anonymous says
Keep it low-key, let the kids decide what rides to go on, and let each kid go off with one parent if necessary to keep both happy and comfortable with choice of rides. Wear water shoes that you can keep on while riding; cubbies may be at the bottom of the slide, not the top, so you if you leave flip-flops there you have to wait in line barefoot. Rash guards and frequent sunscreen reapplication for all. I like to rent a locker and take a Sharpie to write the locker number on my hand so I don’t worry about forgetting it. If anyone in the family has sensitive digestion or is a picky eater, consider packing a picnic lunch to eat at the tables outside the park; for some reason water park food is even grosser than regular amusement park food. Take some shade breaks.
Anon says
Re: food – depends on the water park, I think. Our local water park has better food than the local amusement park.
Vax anecdata says
My 22-mo got Moderna #1 yesterday evening. She usually spikes a fever after vaccines (and one of her daycare besties was out with a fever for a day and a half after his first dose last week), so we were expecting the same. She was her usual energetic self afterwards but didn’t really want dinner (but also apparently ate more than one helping of snack at daycare because she was grazing from her friends’ plates after they left the table early to go play, lol). Bedtime was ok, but she woke up screaming and in a cold sweat around midnight. Then she had what seemed like bad dreams and chills for the next couple hours before finally sleeping soundly enough to be put back in her crib. Completely fine (and hungry!) this morning.
More anecdata says
Glad to hear she’s feeling better. We did Pfizer for our 4 year old and she had no reaction at all to the first shot. She has never really had any reaction to vaccines in the past.
Anon says
Glad she’s better now. As more anecdata, my 4 year old had no reaction at all to Moderna except she complained about a sore arm the afternoon/evening after the shot. She had fevers after her first MMR vaccine, but doesn’t normally get fevers.
Anon says
My 20 month old also got Moderna #1 yesterday (5pm). Zero reaction so far, but she’s never had a reaction to any previous vaccines either. Fingers crossed for shot #2!
anonM says
Glad she’s doing well!
Piggybacking off of this. Kids and I got covid the week before the <5 vaccines were approved, because of course. I've heard different things about whether you should/have to wait for the vaccines after infection. I wanted to wait a little bit so we were all feeling totally better/I could emotionally handle it if they did have severe symptoms/side effects. But, if anyone has researched this and has any reference to research, I'd appreciate it! (I think a few others posted that they got Covid around the same time as our family, so hoping someone can save me some leg work).
Anon says
My ped said it’s fine to get once you’re testing negative. I think the only reason you have to wait is if you got monoclonal antibodies.
Personally I think I’d wait a few months. Protection from infection is not durable in the long term but there’s good evidence reinfection in 90 days is unlikely, and vaccine protection wanes too, so better to stagger it rather than being super protected for the next few months and then having a lot less protection.
(I’m sure someone will say something like “but Jimmy Kimmel got it twice in one month!!!” 1) this happening to one celebrity doesn’t mean it isn’t rare and 2) It’s possible a sensitive test picked up dead fragments. Pretty sure he’s PCR tested daily and those tests are sensitive and don’t mean you’re symptomatic or contagious)
AwayEmily says
Hi Covid friend! My 4yo and I also got covid the week before the vaccine was approved. Our pediatrician recommended waiting a bit before vaccinating him with the idea that he could coast on the post-covid immunity for two months, then have a nice recent vaccine when school starts. Sounded reasonable to me — his sister turns 6 months in early august so we’ll probably take them both then. And I’m also hoping Moderna will be easier to come by at that point (right now it’s not available in our area).
AIMS says
Just asked our doctor. He said you are technically eligible regardless but their recommendation is to wait because they expect numbers to go up in the fall or even late summer and you may be able to better time it.
I also remember reading that spacing is somewhat significant when my 6 year old got her shot (longer spacing than what is recommended in US produces stronger response) so I want to look into that, too. At this point our ped office isn’t offering them so I am just not rushing.
Pogo says
Twins! My 22mo got Moderna over the weekend. Literally zero side effects. It was so easy too, I made an appt online through our state’s vaxfinder and went to a public clinic. I was pleasantly surprised.
OP says
Oh wow, it has NOT been easy to find appts for <3s in my area (despite being a very blue bubble in a purple state). I managed to get an appointment at the health department the minute they opened up the scheduling website, and all of the appointments for the next couple weeks were gone in minutes. I felt like I was trying to get concert tickets. Ped's office (huge university hospital system) still doesn't have any doses. The health department isn't scheduling second doses, yet, and they basically said not to worry, they're sure they'll figure out how to keep scheduling first doses when the time comes to start doing second doses.
Fallen says
I posted this several hours ago but it hasn’t been stuck in Mod so reposting – hopefully we don’t end up with two posts!
My 4 year old has been doing swim lessons for a year, and getting nowhere. He has done normal classes (think YMCA-like) and the teacher (20-25 year old college kids) have engaged with his shenanigans (e.g., adjust googles 30x, he won’t put head under water a lot etc). I got a bunch of recs and enrolled him in an intense place where they seem to really know what they are doing (amazing reviews, 2 kids per class, teacher is the owner and in his 50s and has great experience). Problem is they really push him, so he screamed the entire lesson. Should I keep doing this? I signed him for a 1-week intensive (4 hours this week) and was going to do several more, but now wondering if I should unenroll him given the screaming? I also want him to learn and frustrated that thousands of dollars and hours of taking him to lessons his progress is so slow, and this place seems like it will get the job done more efficiently.
Anon says
I don’t know any 4 year olds who learned to swim in formal swim lessons. It’s too young to make real progress. The Y classes are meant to get kids comfortable with the water and it sounds like they were doing that. I would 100% stop the intense class. You’ll make him scared of water for life.
Anon says
Also it’s not “shenanigans” for a 4 year old to not want to put their head under (it’ fear, and it’s a common one) and the Y teacher isn’t coddling him by allowing him to learn at his own pace. You sound really really intense about this, but most 4 year olds can’t swim and he will be fine.
Spirograph says
I agree with this. Most 4 year olds can’t swim well, even if they are very comfortable in the water. It’s normal, and it’s OK. If your kid liked the YMCA lessons, I would go back to those. (Or just pause lessons and do a lot of fun rec swim over the summer.) The YMCA classes are not going to turn your kid into a swimmer at this age, but they *are* focused on kids being water safe. Not in the sense that they know how to swim, but in the sense that they wait for an adult, respect the lifeguard, know how to climb out of the pool if they’re at the edge, and know they should throw something that floats or lie down and reach if they’re trying to help someone.
LadyNFS says
I’ll dissent a bit. My 4 year old can swim quite well, but I think the type of lesson / instructor makes a real difference, along with consistency. I never opted for group lessons with her and have always done private (partly COVID, partly because we live on water and I wanted / needed her to learn how to swim effectively), though nowhere near as intense as what you’ve described. The goggle adjusting and fear of face under water is real. In my experience, having a patient teacher who met my kid at her level and worked through it at her own pace is vital. But it’s not a fast process. My kid has been taking weekly (sometimes semi-monthly given our schedules) one-on-one lessons for about 15 months now. She can swim front crawl (working on side breathing), backstroke, elementary back stroke, float on her back, tread water for 15 seconds, jump into the pool and swim to the wall, monkey walk, and dive for rings at the bottom of about 4.5 feet. Even then, if we are at a friend’s pool or in our yard she will want to wear floaties for comfort. I agree with other posters that at this age, water fun / comfort is key and I would not want my kid screaming for 4 hours of anything. If you really want him to learn how to swim, I would consider regularly and consistent private lessons (yes, I know there is a cost to this!) patience, and not worrying about the level of progress. He will get there.
Anon says
Sounds to me like he’s just not ready. I’d go back to the Y or take a break for the summer and just do a bunch of fun, recreational swimming, and try again when he is ready. My 5YO didn’t really take to swimming and getting her head in the water until late last summer where it ultimately was peer pressure (other girls diving to get toys) where she started to try those things combined with over 18 months of us gradually getting her used to blowing bubbles and going underwater (with goggles) in the bathtub and then once she seemed interested and receptive we put her back in swim lessons and it has been a breeze (vs. before we, much like you, just had screaming and so we stopped them for a good while).
Ifiknew says
It’s very common where I live in th south with a ton of backyard for kids to have private lessons and be swimming by 4. Are they doing laps with perfect technique, no but they can save themselves and swim the length of a small pool
Anonymous says
“Swimming the length of a small pool” is not really swimming, though. You can randomly flail your arms and legs and get yourself to the side of a backyard pool. True water safety requires the ability to swim longer distances with controlled breathing, calmly tread water, etc.
Anon says
+1
Anonymous says
Yes, I make a distinction between this kind of getting from point A to point B and “swimming.” My 5 year old apparently got a green band at YMCA camp last week, which means he made it a full lap and managed to stay in one place and keep his head above water for a couple minutes, but he dog paddles and flails. I would never claim he can swim or trust him unsupervised in a pool.
Anonymous says
There is no such thing as a 4-year-old who is a really competent swimmer. There is an infamous local swim instructor around here who literally throws the kids into the pool and lets them think they are going to drown. The parents are all thrilled because the kids can “swim” after a week or two of this, but I have seen these kids “swim” and am not impressed. It’s a panicked, thrashing dog paddle that doesn’t make them water safe by any stretch of the imagination.
Kids who learn to “swim” at age 4 through traditional lessons can get maybe 1/4 of the way across the pool with an adult nearby the whole way. Kids don’t really learn to swim until they are old enough and comfortable enough not to be terrified, and coordinated enough to manage arms and legs and breathing all at the same time. This seems to happen around the time they are tall enough to stand up on the bottom of the pool.
All this goes to say–give it time and lots of gentle fun lessons, and don’t push because that will backfire.
ifiknew says
i completely disagree with this. Do you live in Florida or Texas or any other southern city with a lot of backyard pools? What you are saying might be true for where you live, but is not true in areas with a lot of backyard pools. There are truly competent 4 year old swimmers where I live who are not doing a “panicked, thrashing dog paddle”. They are diving for rings, kicking well with their face in water competently and learning to move their arms in a coordinated way. If it’s important to the OP, I would continue with it. I see the crying akin to sleep training. It does work and swimming can very much be a safety thing depending on where you live.
NYCer says
I have seen competent 4yo swimmers too (not my children FWIW). I still would never leave a 4yo unsupervised by a pool, but some 4yo definitely can learn to swim. In the case of OP, it doesn’t sound like this particular teacher/class is a good fit. I would try to find another instructor, and go for a 1-1 class vs. a group class.
Anon says
I live in California and I do know some kids that age who swim reasonably well but I don’t think it’s the norm, even in places where most people have pools. But more importantly, the bottom line is if a kid isn’t ready, they aren’t ready. It doesn’t really matter if 95% of kids their age know how to swim. If your kid isn’t ready, forcing it will backfire.
Anon says
I will also add that for the people I know who have been obsessed with getting kids swimming before elementary school, it was very much a “keeping up with the Joneses” thing. They may have feigned concern about water safety but it was absolutely about the fact that other kids could swim and theirs couldn’t. There’s pressure to not have your kid do things when other kids are doing them, I get that. It’s not fun for your kid to be the last one to master something whether it’s walking or potty training or swimming (I speak from experience – my kid was very late on all three). But kids really do develop at their own pace and generally it’s better to wait until they’re ready. And it’s usually much easier and involves fewer power struggles if you wait.
Pogo says
If he was really screaming the whole time, I wouldn’t force it.
Aunt Jamesina says
I had a swim instructor who threw me in when I was around 5. I was a cautious kid and that experience stuck with me for a long, long time. I still learned to swim, but I was stubborn (still am!) and pretty much refused to go underwater or in water above my head until I was nine years old, when peer pressure gave me a nudge. I’m a perfectly competent swimmer now, but I still remember how scared I was in the water and how afraid I was of that swim instructor (I still remember what she was wearing!). It sticks with you.
N.J. says
I’ve seen ISR advertisements for my area. I can’t speak to it personally, but might be worth looking into.
https://www.infantswim.com/
Anonymous says
This is dangerous because it gives parents a false sense of safety.
Anon says
I am shocked that none of the replies here seem to give any weight to the importance of learning to swim, given that drowning is one of the leading causes of accidental death for kids of that age.
Anon says
No one is saying swimming isn’t an important life skill. But 4 is very young to master swimming independently. And forcing a terrified child to put their head under before they’re ready is both horrible for the kid and may create a lifelong fear of water, which is the opposite of the reasonable end goal of getting a child to confidently swim alone.
The reality is that even with the best swimming lessons in the world very very few 4 year olds will be completely water safe. The best way to mitigate drowning risk at this age is to ensure your child is never around water unsupervised and never spends time in homes with ungated pools.
Aunt Jamesina says
I’m one of the above commenters. You can (and should!) still teach them to swim without subjecting them to harsh methods that might be counterproductive. I took swim lessons every summer, even though I wouldn’t go under water. My mom was explicit with my instructors not to force me since it would just make me dig my heels in more. And I think the ISR lessons can give a really false sense of security. Small children need to be watched like hawks around water no matter how good of lessons they’ve had.
Spirograph says
I don’t think anyone here has said that learning to swim is unimportant. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my comment is coming from the angle that a 4 year old isn’t going to learn to swim well enough to stop taking swim lessons or to be water-safe, no matter how good his teacher. If you want to really achieve swimming proficiency, you’re going to need to keep at it for a few years. A swim class that leads to fear or dislike of water in hopes of achieving some kind of short-term “drown-proofing” is winning the battle and losing the war.
+1 to the commenter above that young kids drown when they’re unsupervised around pools. Swimming lessons don’t solve that, supervision, gates, locks, and alarms do. Older kids, teenagers and adults drown when they overestimate their ability or otherwise get into a situation they can’t swim well enough to survive. That’s why real swimming proficiency is crucial, IMO.
Anon says
I’m one of the replies, and learning to swim is important, but the fact that a 4YO isn’t ready doesn’t mean you should force it. It just means you have to be hypervigilant around water for longer than a kid who learns to swim earlier. We take substantially the same approaches we took at a 1YO walker still at 5YO because even though my kid has just this year learned to “swim” by which I mean she can maybe cover 10 feet and tread water for less than 30 seconds, it will be years before she is a confident enough swimmer to be left unsupervised. I have her in swimming lessons for the long game of eventually being a kid who is water safe, but I have no illusions that it will be years until then, and my approach to water safety isn’t changing until she is confidently able to swim at least 25 yards in a competent manner.
Anonymous says
This right here.
Anonymous says
Expecting a 4 year old to be a confident swimmer is like expecting an 8 month old to walk or an 18 month old to talk in complete sentences. Sure, there are kids who do it, but it’s not a developmentally appropriate expectation. It may be because I have a sensitive, anxious kid who tends to be really slow to warm up to new things, but I’m not a big fan of pressuring kids to do things before they’re ready. I understand that there’s an age at which you may need to be a bit more forceful about learning to swim, but 4 is not that age. I would say more like 8 or 9.
anonM says
Agreed with the comments above. You can still be careful about water safety AND decide that you also prioritize bodily autonomy and refuse to put your kid in a program at 4yo where their bodily autonomy, especially with a stranger, is clearly not respected. I do not think forcing a 4yo to “learn to swim” by any method necessary is appropriate. Yes, sometimes kids have to do things they don’t want to with their bodies, but I’m also not going to be shamed about “water safety” to handing my kiddo off to a stranger to dunk in water and effectively teach them that it’s better to not cry out when they are not comfortable with something scary and that hurts. There are other methods that don’t involve these tactics.
Anon says
Anyone have any anecdata about how long it takes kids to get better from bronchitis? Kiddo (4) had what seemed like a very mild cold a couple weeks ago with an overnight cough that stuck around longer than normal. The cough seemed to be finally getting better at the end of last week but got much worse over the weekend. She ran a fever at school yesterday and was sent home, we went to the doctor and they gave her antibiotics but said it may be at least partly viral and just need to run its course. Last night was so horrible. She was up all night coughing and crying and moaning about how much her chest hurt. She had both RSV and croup as a toddler, and those were tough but this is worse. We’re all zombies today. (And I had to take a certification exam for work today that couldn’t be rescheduled and I failed by one point….argghhh. I can take it one more time but it’s still frustrating.)
Iris says
Was she examined specifically for pneumonia? Sometimes that can be detected by stethoscope, sometimes only by chest xray. When my kid has spiked a fever (which often comes and goes daily) after a viral illness, 2/3 times it has been the beginning of pneumonia, which took multiple trips to urgent care to diagnose. If you are comfortable with the xray exposure, I would really push for one at this point.
Anon says
No x-ray; they listened to her lungs and said they sounded really good so it wasn’t pneumonia. It was a pretty low grade fever, fwiw. School got 100.4, which is the exact cutoff for being sent home. At the doctor an hour later (with no fever-reducing meds) it was 99.3. The school thermometers always seem to get high readings, I’m not really sure why.
Anonymous says
With mine, it was a low-grade fever that came back every day around the same time, and then would disappear again. The pneumonia speck was so small it wasn’t picked up via stethoscope, so it was only found after we brought her back because it wasn’t resolving (I just looked at her past visit notes and the doctors specifically noted that the lungs sounded clear — it took multiple visits to get to the xray to rule out pneumonia). Hopefully the antibiotics will show results soon for your daughter (they should work on bacterial pneumonia, I think). If the fever comes back in the next day, though, I would take her back (could be viral pneumonia). I assuming they ruled out a recent covid infection? I have read that the latest omicron variants can cause very severe croup in little kids.
Anon says
It can take weeks to months. If you notice a correlation to time spent in a location (such as worse after a weekend at home but better when spending more time at school), I would look at improving the air quality of the bad location or avoiding it entirely if that is an option. I know that might sound crazy, but we had to move to get rid of a cough that lingered (with ups and downs) for years. I don’t think everyone is going to have such an extreme situation, but some kids are just very sensitive to their environment.
Anon says
Oh goodness that sounds really hard. We haven’t noticed any environmental patterns, except the cough is worse at night but I think that’s common because of mucus dripping down the throat when you lie down. My mom is convinced this means my kid has asthma (I had childhood asthma and apparently the first sign was frequent bronchitis around this age). I’m hoping my mom is wrong, but bracing myself for that. My kid does have eczema which I know is correlated.
Anonymous says
For the nighttime coughing/sniffles, try an air filter. The allergy + asthma people in our home sleep so much better and more quietly since I put a BlueAir filter in every bedroom.
anon says
I have a 4 year old with allergies and asthma. She would get a lingering cough for weeks after every cold, allergy flare up, etc. that would be better during the day, but terrible overnight, resulting in weeks of little sleep and some scary moments in the middle of the night. I’ve never noticed her wheezing, so for a while we (allergist and I) thought it was an allergic cough and/or frequent and long lasting post-viral bronchitis, and the common lung function tests aren’t typically doable until 6ish. But eventually we saw a pediatric pulmonologist who did oscillometry testing and confirmed cough-variant asthma. Now that we’re actually treating the asthma appropriately she’s been doing great!
Anyway, long story to suggest that if this is a common occurrence, even without classic asthma symptoms like wheezing, shortness of breath, etc., it could be worth seeking out a pulmonology consult.
Anon says
Update: the antibiotics seem to be helping! Her coughing is noticeably reduced today and she was able to take all long nap today. Fingers crossed tonight is better.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
I started reading Jessi Klein’s first book “You’ll Grow Out of It” after hearing her on Forever35 (where I thought she was lovely), which was around the time her essay on motherhood was posted here (which I thought was a bit much). The book has some chuckle-worthy moments but it quickly goes into a seemingly conventionally attractive, upper middle class White woman doing a lot of self-loathing (e.g. implying over and over that she’s ugly and awkward – when she’s clearly not and seemingly actually doesn’t think so, and other things in this realm). Am I missing something? Anyone have any thoughts on her work?
Anon says
I found the essay shared here really off-putting so I have no interest in reading other stuff by her. I’m tired of people acting like motherhood is such a drag. Of course there are hard moments (as there are with many things) but for the most part it’s been a totally wonderful, joyous thing for me and I don’t really have a lot of interest in listening to people complain non-stop about it.
OP says
Wow. This is how I feel, too! Parenting – especially motherhood – is no joke. But mostly, I like it. I appreciate that there’s more “real” discourse on the challenges, especially with a career and partner who works outside of the home as well. But the culture of constant whining/mommy needs wine/”OMG I used to stay up until 6 AM clubbing and now fun is going to C*stco” gets really tiring for me.
GCA says
yeah, on your point about ‘mommy needs wine’ — I used to find upper-middle-class-White-mommy-wine-culture grating but now mostly just try to consciously ignore it in favor of other kinds of real discourse from people who understand systemic gender inequality. (It’s not easy! @%#&* ads in social media feeds…) As an alternative, DH and I try to build community in other ways, like: interacting with neighbors and friends; volunteering with school; participating in local running club; professional development things; for DH, role modeling being a working dad for the team he manages, etc.
startup lawyer says
I like being a mom. i think i am a better person since becoming a mom but i still think mommy needs wine? Even with a supportive husband, I can’t just meet up for last minute happy hour as I wish or take 4 workout classes a week (I work out early or after bed). I can’t even just sit down and read a book and ignore responsibilities for a weekend day without some coordination. Those are definitely all things I miss.
Anon says
I think this also depends on your pre-kid lifestyle. I never related to the whole “I used to go clubbing until 6 am” because I left my clubbing and heavy drinking days behind in my early 20s. My husband and I live in the middle of nowhere so eating dinner at 5:30 pm or driving to the big city an hour away to go to Trader Joe’s were not uncommon occurrences for us pre-kid. There is literally not a single restaurant in our city that we can’t take a baby or toddler to. I can see how it would have been a harder transition if we’d had a more glamorous life but by the time we had kids our life was already so boring there was nothing we really had to give up.
Anonymous says
I didn’t relate to the “mommy needs wine” thing until I had a special-needs kid and a full-time job and a pandemic. Then I understood. But I don’t think this author has any special parenting challenges to stress her out that much.
Anonymous says
I find her to be a whiny navel-gazer.
anon says
I don’t think she’s that funny and relies on a bunch of tropes that have worn very thin. Like maybe they were edgy 10 years ago, but is there anything left to say about mommy needing wine? Huge eyeroll from me.
IUD? says
Can anyone tell me about their experience with an IUD? I have one for the first time – had it put in at 6 weeks postpartum. Interested to hear how others like/dislike it. I’m loving the no periods but not sure if some side effects are new Mom stuff and if it’s IUD related. I have an appt scheduled with OBGYN later this week. Thanks in advance.
Anonymous says
My experience was that my OB gaslit me about the side effects and tried to talk me out of having it removed. My PCP told me the side effects were real. They all disappeared when it was removed, so my PCP and I were right.
NYCer says
I have been generally happy with my Kyleena IUD. I still get very very light periods which is fine. I appreciate not having to remember to take a pill every day. I will say that my skin is slightly worse overall though (more zits).
EDAnon says
I had a mirena put in righty after brith. All was good except I couldn’t drop the last few pounds. IUD came out and I lost it right away. I have Kyleena now and love it. I am a few months in and things are really good and I feel good on it.
I had paragard years ago and hated it. Super painful, heavy periods. Removing it was the best ever for me.
Anon says
I’ve never had an IUD but it might be worth seeing what your postpartum periods are like without it. I know some people seem to have the opposite experience, but my periods have been basically non-existent since having a baby. Two days of very light bleeding. They were so much heavier and longer (~6-7 days) before I had a kid. I used to have terrible cramps and those went away too. My OB told me it was probably a temporary hormonal thing, but it’s been almost 5 years and they seem to get lighter and shorter every month.
anonM says
I loved mine for a long time, also because of no periods, etc. But, recommend getting some cheap pregnancy tests and taking one monthly. IUDs are not 100% effective. Ask me how I know this.
Anne-on says
Hormonal or non-hormonal? My periods were heavier on the copper IUD (and were before kids as well – I had a copper IUD for many years pre-kids). I don’t do well with hormones so I was happy enough to deal with it. Otherwise no real side effects.
In this political climate I’d switch to a copper IUD if the hormones are a deal breaker for you – the efficacy rate is just so darn good and every female ObGyn I’ve ever seen had a non-hormonal IUD themselves.
Anonymous says
I developed painful ovarian cysts when I had an IUD. No one ever told me that cysts are a potential side effect, and that you get to have a lot of fun while you wait for them to dissolve. I also developed severe anxiety about whether the IUD was placed properly.