CorporetteMoms

Updated: Sep 16, 2022 126 Comments · by

Family Friday: Infants’ and Toddlers’ Hi-Pile Fleece Jacket

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A blonde young girl in a purple fleece jacket with ears on the hood, and gray pants

I love a good fleece for fall, and this one for babies and toddlers is just the cutest (and snuggliest)!

This hi-pile fleece will keep your little one warm as the weather cools. It’s perfect for fall walks, apple picking, and hot chocolate runs. There are front hand-warmer pockets and a reflective triangle on the back for increased visibility. The “hand-me-down trail” name tag is a great touch.

This Hi-Pile Fleece Jacket from L.L. Bean is $59. It comes in sizes 6–12 months to 4T. It’s available in bright navy, dark barley, natural, and rich berry.

Sales of note for 9.10.24

(See all of the latest workwear sales at Corporette!)

Kid/Family Sales

  • Carter’s – Birthday sale, 40-50% off & extra 20% off select styles
  • Hanna Andersson – Up to 50% off all baby; up to 40% off all Halloween
  • J.Crew Crewcuts – Extra 30% off sale styles
  • Old Navy – 40% off everything
  • Target – BOGO 25% off select haircare, up to 25% off floor care items; up to 30% off indoor furniture up to 20% off TVs

About Ann

Ann is a working mom, a longtime reader of Corporette and CorporetteMoms, and has been writing our morning fashion advice for working moms since November 2020! She has a daughter (born winter 2014) and a son (born fall 2019) and is a public interest lawyer in Washington, D.C.

Comments

  1. anaonaoanoan says

    We are about to get an ADHD diagnosis for my son who is 4.5. I know the professionals will give me more information, but for those of you who have been through it, what should I be asking them about the diagnosis? I’m not so concerned with medication, etc. but more that I want him to set him up to enjoy learning (which he does when he is interested) and being social (not just with adults)

    And those of you farther down the road on this, how did you handle everything and what do you wish you did in hindsight? I’ve noticed a huge improvement in behavior since 3.5 to 4.5 (he won’t be attending K until he is about 5.9 because of his birthday) but I guess not enough a difference to avoid a diagnosis. I am already overwhelmed running around with all the OT and doctor appointments and having a full-time job (his school is only part-time bc full day is too much, so we’re piecing together different childcare options). What’s going to make it easier? Is formal aftercare always going to be too much for him? Should I start thinking private school+ nanny for the foreseeable future instead? I have the option of going part time and am feeling like this might be the time to do it. My partner definitely does more than 50% of childcare and housework and I still feel like this. I guess maybe I’m just looking for commiseration and a glimmer of hope.

    • anon says

      Hang in there. Be prepared for peaks and valleys. Every kid has them, but ADHD makes them more pronounced. Without knowing anything about your school situation, it’s hard to say whether public vs. private is better. Public schools are legally bound to follow IEPs and 504 plans; private schools have no such obligation. In hindsight, I wish we’d done a nanny instead of aftercare (because it was too much), but I was terrified of picking someone who couldn’t handle his challenges and end up without care at all. I let the what-ifs drive that decision, possibly to our detriment?

      What I’d tell you is that it’s very difficult to project what’s going to work for your son. Take things as they come. Don’t worry about all of elementary school. Focus on that kindergarten year. Or even break it down by semester or month.

      I’d also say that sometimes you find a strategy that works REALLY WELL. And then it’s going to stop working. It’s not because you did anything wrong; it’s because of the ADHD. The ADHD brain craves novelty.

      You have a boy, so start following ADHD Dude on social. He has some of the most concrete tips for parenting. He is not an advocate for letting kids with ADHD get away with everything, which … some resources lean in that direction. ADDitude and Tilt Parenting also are good sources of info.

      Praise your kid often, for what he does well. The sad reality is that most kids with ADHD get corrected and redirected constantly. That needs to be counterbalanced with positive reinforcement.

      If it’s at all possible, find 1-2 friends who you can be honest and real with. Most parents are never going to get how challenging it is to parent a kid whose brain works differently. It can be very lonely at times. By the same token, be very wary of the online groups that seem to live for the drama and want to cure everything with essential oils and cutting out red food dye. (Since you’re a ‘rette, guessing this doesn’t describe you, but be forewarned!)

    • Cb says

      One of my good mom friends had her son diagnosed at the same age. They opted for public K over the private K that he was due to attend because the services were much better and integrated into the school. He goes to a forest school aftercare which seems to help burning energy, and they’ve found the parent support group really helpful in terms of practical and emotional support.

    • anon says

      I obviously don’t know your son, but I might consider an au pair instead of a nanny. If you interview for a very active young person, you may find someone who is very happy to play sports, run, go for bike rides, etc, with him before or after school. That level of physical activity could be really helpful in balancing formal schooling.

      Not all au pairs are that sort of active–you’d have to be very specific in your criteria when interviewing.

    • Carla says

      This is very far down the road, but as someone who was diagnosed as an adult, it would have been absolutely incredible if I could have had any of this help as a kid. I know its chaotic and a lot right now, but its worth it.

      Regarding your questions at the end, it depends on the kid, but for me even without a diagnosis I refused to go to formal aftercare after say age 8. It also wasn’t as necessary in my small town.

    • Anonymous says

      I think the important first step is to slow down and breathe. You can’t solve for all of this. Currently, stay in his school, hire a consistent nanny for after school so it isn’t cobbling together care. Down the road private school may or may not make sense. Many public schools provide great services and supports which private schools aren’t obligated to do. Some are terrible. You have to take it one step at a time.

    • ADHD says

      Here’s my collection of thoughts in no particular order. My ADHD kid is in 4th grade in public school. He went to normal play-based daycare/pre-K, but went to a private school during the pandemic because online learning is particularly awful for early elementary ADHD kids, and that’s all that was on offer in our public school district.
      1. That’s really young for an ADHD diagnosis! Our pediatrician refused to even screen until 1st grade
      2. My son loves after care. The one at our elementary school is pretty self-directed; kids can choose whether to do crafts, gym time, organized sports, or play with any of the myriad other toys, and go between activities if they want.
      3. If you’re going to do public school, it is worth getting a formal 504. We’re going through this process right now. That way you can ask for accommodations that your child needs and have the paperwork to back it up.
      4. Private school is not a given, and if you want to go that route, you need to make sure it’s a good fit. My husband had a terrible experience as an ADHD kid in private school (but many ADHD kids had a terrible experience in school in the 80s and 90s). My son was fine in a private school, but had similar challenges to public school. Many teachers are just better trained in how to manage ADHD kids, now.
      5. Separate the idea of learning from school. My son does not like school, but he loves learning.
      6. ADHD is a difference, not a disability. One book I read likened it to a racecar brain with bicycle brakes. People with ADHD can be hugely creative, see connections that neurotypical people miss, and can be highly successful… it’s just that traditional school and work environments are really, really, not designed for them, and they need a little more coaching and time to meet the expectations in those settings. They also need outlets where their racecar brain is an advantage. Action-oriented sports (lacrosse, hockey, basketball. NOT baseball) can be a real morale boost.
      7. One of the best things you can do is to learn more about ADHD and what parenting tactics are more and less effective for ADHD. It’s also worth talking to his pre-K teachers and sharing what works and doesn’t work at home. Managing a classroom is very different than parenting one kid, but at least it may give them ideas to try.
      8. Sleep is an issue. Like the commenter in a thread yesterday, if my son is physically exhausted, he’ll sleep well. Otherwise he will just stay awake for hours after lights out. And then the next day will be a disaster. Melatonin gummies are really, really helpful on days when he hasn’t had sports practice or enough running-around time.

        • Anon2 says

          I just started reading Parenting ADHD Now! on the (very positive) rec of another mom

        • Anonymous says

          Superparenting for ADD
          Taking charge of ADHD
          not a book, but ADDitude site, as someone else mentioned

      • Anonymous says

        + 1 million to ADHD is a difference, not a disability, with the caveat that you will be forced to characterize it as a disability in order to get accommodations. This really irks me for a lot of reasons, not least because it encourages people to tell you just to temper your expectations for your child because they are disabled instead of giving them the (often minimal) accommodations they need to reach their full potential.

    • anonmom says

      I needed to read this today. We are just starting K but but my child will day dream, not do activities and just sit and talk…meeting with our ped in a few months for ADHD consideration. She won’t have an attitude but just sits and talks, consequences and rewards don’t motivate her. The teacher thinks she’s likely bored. At home she talks about loving school but mostly recess and aftercare (self-directed play)….

      Would love thoughts, but mostly enjoying reading everyone’s input.

      • Anonymous says

        Curious where you land. I posted yesterday about sleep issues- My kid is a young 1st grader and I’m basically convinced she’s ADHD. However, her personal and the psychologist don’t see it as a diagnosable case and neither was her K teacher.

  2. anon says

    Awww, this makes me super nostalgic. My now-middle schooler had a fuzzy LL Bean fleece that was just the cutest. And he wore that thing forever.

    • So Anon says

      I had the same thought!! I had these for both of my kids.

      As a side note: LLBean does make very fuzzy fleeces for adults, just minus the ears on the hood.

    • anon says

      When I saw this I initially thought it would be a Patagonia jacket given the news yesterday that the company is being donated to help address climate change. It’s now at the top of my list of outwear suppliers!

  3. AwayEmily says

    On the fashion hunt for a very specific dress: pink, sparkly, 5T, short sleeves, but NOT with any tulle. This is shockingly hard to find. If you’ve seen anything like this, please let me know!

  4. buffybot says

    I love my MIL, I really do. But she just sent a “floating broom” from a holiday catalogue to my Halloween-obsessed 4 year old. It is a full sized broom that sheds broken twigs everywhere and roombas around on a mobile base, all the while making LOUD cackling noises and other haunted house sounds. It took my husband multiple tools to put together and it’s literally the worst thing someone could give parents living in a Brooklyn apartment. It’s so bad I laughed for 5 minutes straight, and then had to share the crazy with you all. What. On. Earth.

    • AwayEmily says

      oh man. Well, if it’s any consolation, this story totally made my morning.

    • Cb says

      OMG! Is this like the West African drum my mother in laws bought for my son and then got grumpy he wasn’t playing it correctly?

        • Cb says

          Apparently the angle was wrong. They run an African drumming group (they are two white ladies from London so all the side-eye) and are very kind but full on. They got him a ukelele for his 5th birthday and insisted that we make a special trip for a tuner…as if my child will tell if it’s out of tune.

          • Anonymous says

            Hahaha. If grandmas wanted the thing in tune, shouldn’t they have given him a tuner? Or were they shocked that you didn’t have one lying around the house? Also haven’t they heard of tuner apps?

          • SC says

            Haha. My son’s former nanny is a musician. She was always trying to tune his toy xylophone, but only because it drove her crazy when it was out of tune.

    • Anonymous says

      I will buy this treasure from you!! My kids would love it!

      But we are in a big suburban house. ;)

    • Anonymous says

      This is awesome. In my house the batteries in this object would die verrry quickly.

    • AnonM says

      Omg nooooo! Id definitely be keeping it as a reward. No magic broom until all toys are picked up hahaha

    • Anonymous says

      Only an extra magical broom has the power to make your house dirtier.

    • Anonymous says

      Link stuck in mod but google the Coco Pink Sequin Dress at Maisonette. I kind of want it to come in women’s sizes!

  5. CCLA says

    What are those of you with nannies doing when a kid comes down with covid? Does the nanny stay home so as not to be continuously exposed? Or provide an n95 so nanny can stay and work, assuming she has already mostly been exposed anyway (obviously with her not working if she herself is ill)? I have assumed that nanny not working while kid has covid would be the case but trying to gauge whether that is too conservative an assumption. Fwiw, we do not have a nanny right now, I’m trying to get a sense for how getting one might or might not help. Talked to a nanny agency and they said the expectation from their nannies is that they care for sick kids unless they are seriously ill, but that covid requires more nuanced handling, which of course makes sense but we didn’t get into details yet so trying to gather some info. TIA

    • Anonymous says

      I can’t imagine asking a nanny to come to my house if anyone in the house actually has Covid.

      • CCLA says

        Yeah that was my initial thought but the agency saying it was more nuanced led me to believe maybe that’s no longer the norm. Thanks for the input.

    • Anon says

      Our deal with our nanny is that if she (or we) get Covid, then she stays home and we follow CDC guidelines re: testing and timing and returning to work, and she gets paid her normal rate throughout. And it doesn’t count against her 5 days of sick/PTO (or against her 10 days vacation).

      • CCLA says

        Actually now that you say that I think this is what we would do too, since we would pay on the books we would need to comply with local sick leave rules etc so prob not even a question.

        • Anon says

          I don’t think sick leave is mandatory for domestic employees? At least when we paid on the books a few years ago (pre-covid) it wasn’t necessary, but we gave some.

          • CCLA says

            I think some is required in CA – it’s been a few years since we had a nanny so I’ll look into it. Appreciate all the replies here!

    • Anon says

      nanny stays home. and gets paid. it was painful last January when it went from one kid to another!

      • anon says

        If a kid is fully recovered (e.g., back in school) but it’s still going through the house, I’d consider having the nanny watch the healthy kid outside the house. This time of year the weather is nice. Go to a park or museum or wherever. Drop the kid at home later without going inside.

    • AcademicDoc says

      We did this last week. Our nanny stayed home for 10 days. Paid, of course. Thank god my MIL also had covid and was able to cover us for childcare. Otherwise it would have been an even worse hot mess.

    • anon says

      Nanny doesn’t come, generally rely on CDC guidelines and just logic. Exception being Nanny had covid 2nd week of August then we got it the 4th week of august, presumably not from her given the timing of it all. She insisted she was fine to come since she’s fully vaxxed and literally just had it, including everyone in her own house. We didn’t suggest that – we were ready for her not to come, but she insisted, so that worked for us.

    • anon says

      My nanny came when my kid had covid because she’d had it a few months prior and wasn’t concerned about reinfection.

    • Anonymous says

      We have a PT nanny and yeh I wouldn’t have her come if the kids were seriously I’ll with anything, or really contagious. Like flu or stomach flu.

  6. Cb says

    OMG! Is this like the West African drum my mother in laws bought for my son and then got grumpy he wasn’t playing it correctly?

  7. Anon says

    A few weeks ago, there was a really informative thread on kids/instruments. I was surprised at many of the strong feelings around the Suzuki method from the many musicians on this board. My son expressed a strong interest in violin at a very young age, and the only teachers who would take him as a non-reading 4 year old used the Suzuki method. He is now 3 years in, and absolutely still loves it and loves his teacher. He moves very slowly through the books, and the teacher absolutely does not push him. Neither my husband nor I play an instrument, so this whole world is new to us. I didn’t even know what Suzuki was until we started (and it’s not true Suzuki from what I understand – I don’t sit in on lessons, I haven’t learned the violin with him, etc.). But he is learning to play by ear (with some music reading mixed in, but definitely a secondary focus), and he is only playing songs from the Suzuki books.

    I don’t really see my son becoming a concert violinist – but I see him loving playing for friends, at family gatherings, etc. I don’t love that he really isn’t reading music, and it seems like the Suzuki method is really focused on learning a series of songs. Will this translate to being able to play for fun? Or being able to play popular music? Or are those limitations of the Suzuki method? I think my real question is – are we going to eventually need to leave the Suzuki teacher (which ack! we really love her and she is wonderfully low pressure), but if so, when is a good age? He’s only 7, and still not a super strong reader but improving a lot this year – so it’s been nice to separate his love of playing his instrument from learning to read, which he struggled with.

    • Isabella says

      Based on my own experience, I would definitely stay with a low pressure teacher who is a good fit! They sound very similar to my teacher as a kid, who started with Suzuki books and emphasized the instrument not the music theory. I stuck with it for 12 years and only quit because of a hand injury.

      On the other hand, I know my teacher was a phenomenal musician (former first chair in a famous symphony) and easily taught at a higher level to the kids who wanted that. She also quickly branched out beyond the Suzuki songs to find a basically infinite variety of songs tailored to each student’s taste and skill level. I think it’s incredibly important to like the process, including a strong relationship with the teacher, but if your kiddo eventually outgrow this teacher you can address it then!

    • anon says

      First, don’t panic. Almost no 7 yos can read music at all, let alone well. He’s not even slightly late on this. I’d talk to his teacher about having him sight read a bit at each lesson. Hopefully she’ll be receptive. It’s far from a crazy ask.

      As he is ready, you can also look for ensembles where he can play with others. This is a great way to get better at reading. It also helps to solve the “solo violin” issue that can happen with Suzuki players where they only can play to their own rhythm and don’t play well in a group. (And ensembles are fun!)

      If he likes music but doesn’t want to change teachers, you could have him take piano lessons. He’ll learn to read music and those skill will easily translate to violin.

      • Anonymous says

        For ensembles, when he’s a little older search for youth orchestra programs. They may nor may not be affiliated with your local symphony orchestra. These programs often have string ensembles for kids as young as elementary school at an advanced beginner or intermediate skill level. Our local youth orchestra program also offers a practice skills workshop that looks pretty great.

        • Spirograph says

          +1 ensemble playing is fun and develops musicianship beyond what you can do as a soloist alone.

          And adding on to anon at 11:18 — learn literally any other instrument. Or sing in a choir. Music skills are cumulative and transferrable to other instruments and between solo & ensemble playing. If you learn to count and read music while learning to play the trumpet in school band, you’re not going to just turn the counting and music-reading part of your brain off because there’s a violin in your hand. At least, that’s not my experience. (Probably better to learn another instrument that also plays in treble clef, though.)

    • Anonymous says

      TL/DR: You leave a teacher when that teacher is no longer working for your child and his goals. It has nothing to do with age, and everything to do with fit.

      Just as an example of how that looks: I started Suzuki piano at age 5. I left my first teacher at age 7 — the story as I remember it was that I made really fast progress from a technical standpoint, but burned out and took a break from piano for several months. I started again with a non-Suzuki teacher who tried to make me start at the beginning more traditional method that included theory and sight reading since I was really weak in those areas. I haaaaated him, because I could play at such a higher level and doing those baby songs pissed me off. I switched again to a different Suzuki-ish teacher who supplemented with other methods while continuing to work through the Suzuki curriculum. She was lovely and I stayed with her for 5 years until my family moved (fun fact, one of her students who was about my age is a world-touring concert pianist, and my claim to fame is that he used to compliment me after recitals). By then, I’d finished the whole Suzuki curriculum, but, after doing some “trial lessons” with a number of teachers, chose a new Suzuki-ish teacher who was basically a younger version of my previous one and stayed with her until I left home for college.

      Suzuki teaches technique and trains playing by ear. Whether you play for fun is part of individual temperament and how much you enjoy the act of playing your instrument. You can play for fun without reading music, and you can read music without enjoying what you’re playing. I *can* play anything (except jazz, which is a totally different skill). I have some books of popular music arrangements that I sight-read for fun, but I practice classical repertoire because that’s what interests me. I can play simplified versions of just about anything by ear. It’s hard to say whether I just “naturally” have a good ear or whether that’s a result of my early Suzuki training. I improved my sight reading more from playing band/orchestra instruments and doing chamber music on piano than from focused practice at it. I still play at a much higher level than I can read, but… what do I need to sight read hard stuff for? I read the music to learn the music, I usually perform solo from memory anyway. FWIW, all formal music instruction incorporates reading, ear training, theory, and technique… the differences are in the degree and the order they’re introduced.

    • Anonymous says

      If he has any interest in playing in an orchestra or other ensemble, or you think he will at some point, you will need to get him reading and counting. It is easier to learn these skills early on. If this is a low-key teacher who is not strictly following the Suzuki method, you can probably ask about having him reading more music, which will naturally lead to the need to count. (Side note: there was some discussion of “sight-reading” in the earlier thread. Sight-reading is not exactly the same as being able to read music; it is the ability to play what’s written on the page the first time you see it without hearing it first. Lots of people who can read music well are terrible sight-readers. Both reading music and sight-reading are important skills for success.)

      I would also periodically re-evaluate whether this teacher’s approach meets your son’s needs. My daughter studied piano for several years with a very laid-back teacher who never pushed, gave few corrections, and only had the kids play “fun” songs instead of real classical music. She found it frustrating and limiting. She switched to another instrument with a teacher who is a college professor, takes things much more seriously, and is quite demanding in a positive way, and she is having so much more fun because she is experiencing solid progress and seeing the connection between work and results.

      • Anonymous says

        I kinda disagree that reading and counting is necessary to start early in order to play with an orchestra or ensemble (it’s hard to get very far in music without learning to count. It’s more foundational than reading). Instrumental music in public schools usually starts in 4th or 5th grade. Kids who have never picked up a violin before learn to sight-read music, count, and play with an ensemble simultaneously with learning to make nice sounds on the instrument. If you already know how to play, it should be very easy to pick up the ensemble playing skills at that time.

        OP, you can ask the question, but especially since you and your husband aren’t musicians and your son is enjoying learning with this teacher, I would be inclined to trust her methods and pacing in introducing skills.

        • Anonymous says

          Exactly–kids in elementary school orchestra learn to read and count while they are learning to play the instrument, which makes it easier. What I’m saying is that if kids learn to play by ear, it can be more difficult to go back and add reading and counting to that later on. At least based on the kids I’ve seen.

          • anon says

            +1. Kids who can play by ear well will use that skill to avoid learning to read and count. They basically flub the first sight reading run through in an ensemble, but then they’ve heard their peers play the song and they can follow along by ear. Of course the version they play by ear often isn’t quite right as there are things lost in how their peers are playing that are written in the music. It becomes a crutch.

          • Anonymous says

            This is my entire church choir. Flub the first read-through, then try to copy the four of us who can sight-sing. And they do not count. Infuriating.

          • Spirograph says

            hahahaha, truth, choirs are the worst. In their defense, sight-singing is way harder than sight reading on an instrument. You do the mechanical thing that produces an A on an instrument, it will come out as an A. Sight-singing needs knowledge of intervals. I loved that my HS church choir director made us do the dannhauser solfedge exercises; he’d rant about how no other musician would ask an accompanist to “play my part” so there’s no excuse for a vocalist doing it. :)

            Lack of counting, though, I have no defense for other than to say that I play in a chamber ensemble where one member counts but doesn’t listen and that is worse than the opposite, especially if he counts incorrectly.

      • anon says

        Practicing sigh reading is suggested because it’s how you get a kid who can play by ear to learn to read music. Just having the music there to be read isn’t enough because they’ll lean on their ability to play be ear instead of actually reading.

        • Anonymous says

          Right, but some people say “sight-reading” when they mean the ability to read in general.

    • anon says

      If you wanted to have him try playing another style, you could ask the teacher about supplementing with the O’Connor method. It’s the same approach as Suzuki (by ear), but for fiddle music. Lots of fun songs to try.

  8. Anon says

    Posting this in spirit of a fun discussion.

    I listened to the recent episode of Best of Both Worlds where they talked about the term “quiet quitting” (which is a terrible phrase for a good thing, IMHO!). I feel like it’s pretty clear in articles, etc. that “quiet quitting” just means – doing your job, doing it well, but not driving yourself to burnout. It’s basically the antidote to girlboss/hustle/work as a personality trait culture, which I grew up with as an elder millennial and agree that approach usually ends up in burnout.

    However, I feel like SHU and LVN saw it as…I dunno…almost laziness to want to go in, do your job well, and leave for the day. They caveated a lot, but I also felt like it was another example of their general mindset if you’re not always focused on efficiency and productivity you’re “taking a step back”. For anyone else who listened, what did you think?

    For the record, I ebb and flow with my listening of the podcast – LVN is not my vibe, and I think SHU is lovely but I just don’t have the energy for all that planning/tracking and constant focus on productivity/improvement.

    • Cb says

      I listened to this as well and I think quiet quitting is a made-up thing to pit people against younger people in the workplace rather than focusing on the systemic issues. People are burnt out and want lives outside of work.

      I’m in UK HE and we are on “action short of a strike” which is basically doing your job, not quitting, not striking but not taking on any extras. I feel like quiet quitting is similar. Some unis are penalising their staff for doing so (100% pay deduction in 1) which is definitely saying the quiet part aloud, that an academic job can’t be done in 37.5 hours.

    • Liza says

      I also listened to the episode and I think a big problem comes from different definitions of “quiet quitting.” I agree with you that I read it as doing your 9-5 and nothing more. But they talked about SHU’s recent move to part time work as “quiet quitting.” That’s not what it means! The decision of whether to go part time is a totally different thing.

      And as for LVK, she is self-employed so the concept of quiet quitting doesn’t really apply to her. She has no job description nor manager nor company to report to. If she wants to work less, she can simply take on fewer projects or clients, or extend out the timelines for her existing ones.

      I really like BOBW but I’m not sure they have much meaningful to say on this topic. This might have been a good one to cover with a guest speaker, but they clearly wanted to get this out while the topic is trending.

      • Pogo says

        exactly, if you consciously go PT you are telling your employer “this is how much I am giving you, it is less than full time”. Quiet quitting is not telling your employer, and giving them less than FT. Which as I said below, I’ve done at times, because I needed the break mentally.

        • Liza says

          I thought of it as giving them exactly FT – just not more. Not giving them any of the extras. If your job is to make widgets 40 hours a week, don’t make widgets for an extra 5 hours per week, don’t volunteer for the committee, don’t attend the optional professional development sessions, don’t look for big picture ways to improve the widget making process. Just make your widgets as required and be done with it. But it’s not “less than FT.”

    • Pogo says

      Someone the other day was like “quiet quitting is also called… having boundaries”.

      I think perhaps the difference is the mental outlook – are you checked out FOREVER? That’s not good, even just for your own mental health. I have, however, scaled down to 70% effort for periods of time when I needed to. Did the bare minimum. I always advocate that instead of actually going PT (at least at a corporate job with broad responsibilities – I get that if you work a shift job, it is possible to actually go PT) and see how it works.

      I will say at my company, those quiet quitter types are the first ones to go in any reduction action (they’ve been around for years, the pandemic did not create this type of employee). It is not unnoticed by management at all. It is much harder to fire for cause – you have to document extensively that they aren’t doing their job, give them time on a PIP, etc, so it’s much rarer, but it’s possible.

    • Anon says

      I don’t listen to the podcast but I think quiet quitting is different than just doing your job well but not going above and beyond. I view it more as doing the bare minimum you can get away with and not get fired, so I can see why people who quiet quit are branded as lazy. Fwiw, I’m someone who thinks of myself as having quiet quit a couple of years ago. I haven’t recovered from pandemic burnout and resentment over the way my employer treated me during lockdown when I actually was busting my a$$ to get stuff done with no childcare, and for a variety of reasons getting a new job is not easy (I’ve been looking). So I figure I will just coast along this way until they decide to fire me or I get done with the little kid stage of life and decide to lean back in. Based on how long my employer takes to fire people, it could very well be the latter.

      • Liza says

        I find cases like yours fascinating. I’d love to hear more about how your day to day goes, what kind of pushback you’ve gotten, if any. I always think of this as an example for this in BigLaw who burn out and quit. Rather than quit your BigLaw job, I always wonder what would happen to people who just did it really poorly, or not at all. Partner asks you to write a brief by the next morning? Just explain you didn’t get to it, ghost them, or turn in something really bad. How long would it take them to fire you?

        • Anon says

          My employer is nothing like Big Law. It’s supposed to be 9-5. Part of what motivated me to do this was the pandemic, but part of it was that I started working for someone who has very unrealistic expectations and was not happy with good employees who didn’t want to work nights and weekends (which is totally not the norm at my employer in general). It was kind of like, well I can’t make you happy working hard 45 hours a week and I’m unwilling to work 50+ hours a week, so I might as well just work way less and make you even more unhappy? Both before and after quiet quitting my reviews praise the quality of my work and criticize my productivity, and the difference hasn’t been as great as you might expect given how much less I work now, so that sort of reaffirmed to me that I did the right thing for me. I’m in a very individual role. When I don’t get to things they just don’t get done. I’d feel guilty if my slacking off was putting more work on my co-workers, but that’s not the case. To be honest, I think I would be happier overall working harder at a more fulfilling job, but since I’m stuck at this job I’m happy I can get away with working a lot less than 40 hours. I am also fully remote, which is a big factor. Working fewer hours wouldn’t do much good if I were stuck in an office for 40 hours, but since I’m not I can use that time productively for things that bring me joy like reading, exercise and being with my kids.

      • Pogo says

        This is my take on quiet quitting as well. If the definition is “9-5 and nothing more” than all my employees are pretty much already there? And me too maybe? I have to work outside of those hours because of time zones, but I also ran and showered during the day every single day this week, online shop, read & post here and all kinds of other stuff during my 40 hours “on the clock”. I do some big picture strategic type stuff, as well as ERG’s, and if I quit those I think I’d meet this definition.

        I don’t look down on someone who just does their job 40 hrs/week, doesn’t aspire to advance, etc. That is… totally fine.

    • anon says

      I think this episode was the epitome of why term “quiet quitting” is so dumb.

      In my mind, “quiet quitting” should apply to employees doing the bare minimum (one example: retiring in place). That is quite different from trying to do a good job and caring about work but having boundaries about how much work encroaches on your personal time. Those are two very different things!

      I can’t stand Laura and Sarah is sweet but her constant focus on productivity is EXHAUSTING, so I’m not even sure why I listen to them anymore.

      • OP says

        I salute SHU for having the energy she does. I really do – total you go girl vibes. I just wonder if they realize…most people don’t? I have a circle of pretty high-acheiving, well-educated girlfriends in various phases of career/life – kids, no kids, married, single, very engaged/climbing the “ladder” in career, leaning out, etc. NO ONE has the level of focus/energy she seems to have when it comes to planning and executing their days. I also like…LOVE my celebrity gossip/fashion and consuming that stuff (podcasts, blogs, etc.) probably is what someone like her does focusing on productivity. I love to read books, but for me, how the podcast ladies do it would suck a lot of joy out of the process. I recently pulled up her blog and read about her marathon training and had to close it.

        It is certainly a case of Amy Poehler’s “Good for her, not for me”.

        • Boston Legal Eagle says

          I like SHU more than LVK, but I agree, it’s a lot of focus on organization and constant monitoring of your days and habits. I get stressed out just tracking my books on goodreads! But as always, us “normals” aren’t the ones out there doing podcasts!

        • NLD in NYC says

          Agree, I don’t know how SHU has that much energy. She almost make me want to take up running… almost…

      • Anonymous says

        I didn’t listen to this episode, but I had a similar discussion recently with my MIL, who was a corporate exec until she retired. She thinks if employees, especially junior/mid level women, are not going the extra mile, staying late, being super available and volunteering for extra work, they’re not demonstrating their value and will “fall behind”. She thinks the quiet quitting trend is doing a disservice to women because they will be more likely to be fired for enforcing boundaries at work. I think in some ways that’s probably true, but it’s also objectively a bad work culture and should be changed. Maybe as millennials move into management roles, that culture will shift somewhat? Hopefully at least.

        • OP says

          I think this is the ultimate Boomer take because it was the reality for them, especially womxn. I agree that we have a chance to fix this and shift the culture.

        • Boston Legal Eagle says

          Whereas my MALE boss applauds me for setting boundaries and praises me and my work to senior leaders. There’s often an incorrect correlation that working all the time = best worker, but the quality of work is what matters, not how many facetime hours you put in. I’m sad to say that I’ve had a lot of female bosses like your MIL, and I think a lot of it has to do with what they felt they had to do to prove themselves/being the only female senior leader. #notallwomen obviously, and I do hope that changes as more women become leaders.

        • Boston Legal Eagle says

          My comment is in moderation, but basically I’ve had this experience with female bosses more than male bosses, sadly. I get it, but it’s a little sad that my career growth has been mostly due to my awesome MALE bosses.

          • Anonymous says

            I have had similar problems with female bosses, especially the ones with SAH husbands.

        • anon says

          Agree, that’s a Classic Boomer reply. I’m seeing even the Gen-X men not being willing to do what they were doing 5 years ago, so that gives me a shred of hope that workplace culture can change.

    • NLD in NYC says

      Fellow elder millennial : ) Hmm…not what I got from the episode. I see they struggled with defining the term (as we all are, apparently!). However, to me, they seemed to come down more on defining it as setting appropriate boundaries rather than being lazy.
      Also, have a love/hate relationship with BOBW, but Best Laid Plans helps to balance it out (love SHU). But thanks again to whoever suggested Brilliant Balance. Catching up on past episodes!

      • FVNC says

        This was my take as well, and I’m surprised by the other responses (but it’s interesting to see different viewpoints!). I was actually pleasantly surprised to hear them come down on the side of setting boundaries, or at least that’s how I interpreted it. I did give a big eye roll to SHU’s comment about working in an Amazon warehouse being meditative; they really should have edited that out, geez. That said, I totally get the allure of working a job where you’re DONE when you clock out.

      • anonM says

        That was me, glad you’re liking it. Also listening to old episodes of Brilliant Balance still.

        I did not listen to BOBW on quiet quitting but did read LVK’s NYT editorial/article and I liked it. My TLDR summary is that it actually more energizing long term to do something you find fun/fulfilling than get stuck in a rut of doing nothing/mindless TV etc. I think it is true, even if I have a hard time getting out of my own ruts.

        • anon says

          Yeah, I didn’t have the negative response to her editorial that some folks online did, because it resonated with my own experience. Like, if I do nothing all weekend it feels like the weekend flies by and isn’t relaxing. Doing things that I am excited about somehow makes the weekend seem longer and leaves me feeling more rested. I know that people have different levels of energy and some people really need to just veg, but I’m far better off making sure that I, say, go on a little hike with my toddler on Saturday and make it to church on Sunday instead of just lounging at home that entire time.

    • AwayEmily says

      Lately when I listen to this I just fast-forward through LVK’s parts. Which actually makes the episodes much shorter since she talks for twice as long as SHU about every single thing. I get the sense that LVK thinks she is very, very interesting.

  9. Car seats three across? says

    I’m pregnant with my third and trying to figure out how on earth people do this with carseats! We have a Honda Odyssey minivan and a midsize SUV (has a small third row that we never use).

    Right now both my toddler and preschooler are rear facing (we have extended rear facing seats), but preschooler could be turned forward facing. So realistically, I will have one forward facing convertible seat, one rear facing convertible seat, and an infant carrier.

    I’d really prefer to have all three in the second row as none will be able to completely buckle themselves. We don’t really use the third row anyway except for hauling stuff around.

    Has anyone dealt with this or have ideas?

  10. Anon says

    If anyone is looking for encouragement to start a young-ish child on an allowance, do it! We started giving my 4 year old $3/week, which is not coincidentally the price of the character juice box she always made my husband buy for her at the grocery store. So now she has her own money, but no more toys and treats from us except gifts at holidays or if the whole family is doing something together (like if we all go out for ice cream, we’ll pay for her ice cream). She’s been doing so well with the concept of saving vs. spending and has been voluntarily foregoing the juice boxes so she can save up for a better toy. Last week she got sad about not getting anything at the store and found a $1 toy she could buy so she could still put some money in her savings. A lot of people were really surprised we wanted to give a 4 year old allowance, but it’s been going surprisingly well!

    • anon says

      This is a very relevant topic in my house, and we also have a 4 year old. The local savings bank gifted her a piggy bank and she loves it, but we’re still trying to figure out how to make this a productive, healthy thing. thanks for posting.

    • Anonymous says

      This is great! We had a similar experience starting our daughter on an allowance at age 5. The key is to let them make mistakes and learn from them. By the time my kid was 8 she was good enough at saving to buy herself an American Girl doll after we told her Santa doesn’t bring a second AG doll to kids who already have one.

      • Cb says

        Oh that’s great. We started with an allowance last month (with real money, had to go to the post office and beg for change since we so rarely use cash) and it seems to be working. And when we went to a tourist attraction where we’d normally buy him a souvenir, we said you could buy something or we could put an extra £5 in your piggy bank. He chose the money and combined with some birthday giftcards got a big lego model.
        I guilt buy things in the airport bookshop and hoping this will cut down on it…

        • OP says

          Yes the hardest part of this is that my husband and I never have cash!! A friend told me to just keep a ledger for the kid but that seemed too abstract for a 4 year old. I think it helps that she has cash and she brings it whenever she goes shopping with one of us. But getting cash in dollar bills is such a nuisance!

          • Anonymous says

            I agree that a ledger is too abstract. I just go to the bank every few months and take out a big stack of dollar bills.

    • Anonymous says

      I feel like we missed the boat on this because our child was 5-6 during the biggest lockdown year(s) and we weren’t taking him into stores pre vaccine. Now at 7 he has money but so much anxiety about spending it. Any tips to help with learning to actually spend your money? I can’t even get him to bring his wallet to a garage sale without a meltdown.

      • OP says

        Would it help to shop online (with you)? We have only spent the allowance in stores so far but my kid likes looking online with me when I shop for necessities like clothes.

      • Anonymous says

        I am generally against enforcing spend/save proportions for kids’ allowances (I think they should get to save up for what they want and then spend all their money on that if that’s what they choose to do, rather than saving for the sake of saving), but maybe in this case spend/save envelopes could help him feel permission to spend? Or just wait until there is something very special he really wants and then he will decide to spend? I definitely wouldn’t pressure him to buy junk at garage sales.

        • Anonymous says

          Oh definitely not pressuring to buy junk, more like “we are stopping at a garage sale on the way to grandma’s house, you might bring your wallet in case you see a toy you want to buy.”

      • SC says

        No advice, but commiseration. My son was also 5-6 during the biggest lockdown years, and we went a long time without taking him to stores. Now, at 7, he (a) fights us about going to stores, and (b) doesn’t want to spend any of his money. Even when he thinks of something he wants, when we suggest using allowance money, he says “nah.” He’s not saving up for anything either. As far as I can tell, he’s just hoarding cash.

        I’m not sure he’s learning much about spending vs saving, etc. But I assume one day, he’ll want something. Forcing him to buy something won’t teach him either.

    • Anon says

      this is great! i’d do it with my4 year old twins, except i almost never take them to stores, so i don’t know what they would ask for/want to buy. whenever they mention something now (which is very very rare) we just say we can put it on the birthday/hannukah list

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