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Anonymous says
How do we get pee smell out of the couch??! The cushion covers are not machine washable — instructions say spot clean only. Right after the event occurred, we took the covers off and sprayed them with water/alcohol and left to dry. However, they still have a smell. Any ideas?
Anon says
I feel like intense sunlight is good at getting smells out of fabric. It may fade the color though.
anon says
You could take the cover off and turn it inside out, so any fading is on the back. Put the foam in the sun too.
TheElms says
Have you washed the inserts? They likely absorbed a lot of pee as well. What kind of material are the cushion covers? I think you’ll likely need to at least hand wash them (or run them in a machine inside out on the gentle cycle in cold water) to get the smell out and then air dry them. I’d also try some type of enzymatic cleaner if washing alone doesn’t get the smell out. I’d spray it on the inside to minimize damage to the visible part of the fabric.
Spirograph says
yes, I’d use enzymatic cleaner, wash the inserts and then leave them in the sun (flipping a couple times) for a full day, maybe 2, to dry.
If the covers themselves smell, I’d hand wash them. Spot test to be sure, but a gentle detergent like woolite should be OK… let them soak in the sudsy water a bit. No machine wash is usually more about agitation than getting wet.
Anonymous says
Use enzymatic cleaner asap on the pad and covers!
NLD in NYC says
You can also try spraying (unflavored) vodka on the cushions.
Anonymous says
Ehhh all my couch cushions say to spot clean only and I’ve run all of them through the washer on cold/gentle and air dried. They’ll be fine. Worst thing we had was a sippy cup of milk spill. Gross.
HSAL says
Someone left a very kind comment last week so I thought I’d update. Tomorrow is the 7 month anniversary of losing my husband and we’re doing okay. We started at a kids’ grief support group a few months ago, and I think that’s been good for them. We’ve had a decent routine going. I’ve been nervous about summer but think I put together a decent schedule of camps and downtime and kid-free breaks for me. So far so good. I’ll be solo in Toronto the end of June if anyone wants to meet up!
Anon says
So happy to hear this positive update, HSAL! I’ve been thinking of you and your kids frequently.
Spirograph says
Same. I’m sure the anniversaries are tough, but glad to hear your support network is strong and you’re doing ok!
Boston Legal Eagle says
Thanks for the update, HSAL, and glad to hear everyone is getting support. Enjoy Toronto!
GCA says
Glad to hear it! Thanks for sharing, I’ve been thinking of you.
Anon says
Thank you for taking the time to update HSAL. I think of you and your family often. I’m not sure if you shared what led to the loss (and absolutely no pressure to share if you have not, of course), but my husband lost his mother unexpectedly to a brain tumor that was not diagnosed until she passed. It was hard and traumatic, but having a father who did the hard work to support the kids in their grief helped tremendously. He has very happy memories of his childhood, despite the grief and trauma.
avocado says
Thank you for the update! I have been thinking of your family. Sending internet hugs and wishes for a relaxing summer.
Anon says
i think of you all the time. i’m a fellow twin mom, but who only has twins, i know you have an older one too. i do a lot of solo parenting, but every time I’m having a hard time I think of you and how you are supermom. i’m sure it is soooooo hard, but kudos to you for hanging in there in and planning a nice summer for you and your kids
Vicky Austin says
Been thinking about you! Glad to hear you’re holding.
Anonymous says
Thank you for the update HSAL. I think about you often.
Anon318 says
Does anyone have experience giving their mid-to-upper elementary child an Apple Watch? Can you share pros/cons, anything unexpected or things to think about?
We are considering for DS whose drop-off sports practices are becoming more variable. I would also like to give him freedom to roam the neighborhood a bit more while still having the ability to communicate if necessary (but maybe I just need to let this go – I definitely roamed the neighborhood with nothing but my home phone number memorized in my head!). Thanks!
Anonymous says
We just got one for our rising third grader for two reasons: (1) roaming the neighborhood – she’s been unleashed this summer to ride her bike much farther from home, and (2) she is an only child who is likely to be allowed to start staying home alone for short bursts. Our choice was between that and some sort of dumb phone so she could contact us. Our primary concern was when she was home alone. But we like the increased functionality of the Apple Watch (texting, tracking). And she is really motivated to wear the watch and has wanted one forever. She also likes texting a lot. And, lastly, DH really led this initiative for our family, and this was his preference, which I was happy to defer to. So far, so good. But it’s only been 3 weeks.
Anon says
Following, but also throwing out the idea of a Gabb watch. That’s what I’m considering when the time times
Boston Legal Eagle says
Curious about this too in a year or so for my older kid. I’ve heard that the Gizmo Watch can be a good bridge as I think it just does calls and texts, with location tracking, and is cheaper. You need Verizon though.
Anon318 says
We are also considering the Garmin Bounce, FWIW. I use a Garmin watch for sports and activity tracking and I like how locked down the Bounce is. Just exploring options!
GCA says
We went with a Garmin Bounce too for my third-grader to facilitate independence – I can get him across the one major street and then he’s on his way to his friend’s house. It uses an app, so it works with my and DH’s phones which are on Google Fi.
Anon says
We have a gizmo watch for my rising fourth grader and it’s been great. She can only text or call me and her dad from it or anyone we add but we haven’t added anyone else. So it’s really just about pickups and dropoffs. Has given peace of mind when we’re late to grab her or when she’s out walking the dog. Would definitely recommend. And no games or fun things like an apple watch.
Anonymous says
I’ve heard a lot of negative comments about the Gizmo from family and friends who have had them.
Anonymous says
A flip phone.
Anon says
+1.
Anon says
Really long reply in moderation, but yes, this.
Anon says
This is what we plan to do too.
Spirograph says
This. We have a flip phone that mostly lives in the kitchen (where the landline used to be). My kids roam the neighborhood without phones, but tell me generally who they’ll be with so I know which parents to call if I need to find them fast. They all have my number memorized, and usually the parents update each other where the pack of kids is, anyway.
Anonymous says
We opted not to do it and Jean into the freedom aspect of it. Many of her friends have one, so it’s really just a parenting choice/philosophy/know-your-kid.
My kid is almost 11 and VERY responsible. I let her ride her bike around the neighborhood and to the local corner market. I tell her when to be back and she wears a watch.
She is also allowed to bike to our pool. They have a land line there so if there were an emergency and I needed to reach her, she could call me or I could call the pool and they’d find her. She also knows tons of people (older kids with phones and adults) there and could use a phone to call me if needed. When she stays home with siblings or alone she can (and does) call me using the Amazon dot. On occasion, I’ve let her take my phone on a bike trip and she can call DH’s cell in an emergency.
She will probably get a phone mid middle school. She certainly won’t be the first kid but at some point when 75% of her friends have them, I’m not protecting her from things.
Anon says
Ahoy! Controversial opinion ahead! I have two kids, ages 9 and 11. Apple Watches are ALL the rage with both of their friend groups. Parents seem to love them because they feel like they aren’t giving their kids iPhones, but they can still track their kids, text their kids, and call their kids. Kids love them bc they can text their friends on any Apple platform, play games, call their friends, etc.
Yes, you can turn them “off” during school hours, which is great. BUT in my experience, I think they are as bad, if not occasionally worse than an iPhone. The kids I know who wear them are being trained by the alert to look at their wrist immediately when a text or notification comes in. You can set a phone down and at least walk away from it or put it in a purse or a backpack, but with a watch, you are literally strapped to a device that buzzes you or that is just an eye movement away from knowing if a buddy has texted you back or “liked” something. My daughter’s best friend has a watch bc her parents are hardlined that they don’t want to be the parents who gave their daughter a phone. But, the BFF will freak out if someone doesn’t text her back immediately, and I honestly think it’s because you have constant instant gratification to know if someone has written you back. I also get sick of talking to kids who are constantly averting their eyes to their wrist mid-conversation when the kid is getting buzzed by friends or just in the habit of checking to see if someone has responded. I personally suspect there will be a backlash in the next few years. Already, both of my kids’ coaches make kids leave Apple watches in backpacks at practice bc of the distraction.
Our solution with two very active kids who stay home alone often, and who are often dropped at games and practices is an old school flip phone. Our kids call it a “portable landline.” It only makes calls or receives texts and can take very cruddy pictures. The texting feature is extremely clunky and annoying tho (old school buttons with letters on them) so texting is very utilitarian — “Done” or “Home”. Both my kids have one and only turn it on if they are home alone (required to stay alone) or being dropped off or picked up at a practice or game. As noted, sometimes my daughter will turn hers on after it’s been off for three days, and daughter’s BFF with the watch has sent her like 20 messages asking my daughter why she isn’t responding to texts. I honestly think she texts, then sits there staring at her watch, and gets herself super worked up bc she doesn’t get an immediate response. And the watch IS ALWAYS ON HER BODY. The other unexpected perk with our flip phone is that my daughter will just see these messages, roll her eyes, and pick up the phone and CALL HER FRIEND BACK (bc it’s too hard to send a long text response), and they’ll talk on the phone for like an hour — old school 1990s style.
With my son, less of the texting drama, but man, I’ve talked to a lot of 9 year old boys who will just stop speaking to me mid sentence and start playing a game or responding on their watch. Cool cool cool.
Yes, I will die on this hill, thanks for asking :)
Anon says
I completely agree and it’s why I don’t want an Apple watch for myself. I’m already too addicted to my phone, but at least I can still leave it home sometimes or in the other room. I really don’t think it would be a good thing for my kid.
Cerulean says
I can definitely see how it would be problematic for a kid, but I love it for myself. I can leave my phone in my car at work or in a lockbox at home and still get calls and messages. I find I’m far less glued to a screen than normal.
Anonymous says
This is why I’d rather start kids with a phone than a watch. I have an Apple watch because I like the workout features, but I have turned off all the alerts. Adults with text alerts on their watches annoy me to no end. Somehow people know to ignore their phones during conversations and meetings but not their watches.
Anon318 says
I so appreciate this comment and the humor laced in your response! The flip phone is a great middle ground with the added bonus that we could call it the “family phone” and give it to either of our kids when the situation calls for it. I definitely want to avoid that visceral reaction to notifications and was thinking we could either lock the watch down to communicate only with approved contacts (parents, grandparents, babysitters, etc.). Have you seen that work in your circle?
At the moment, our kids are not allowed to text/email/chat with friends on any electronic device. They are allowed to use parent phones or landline to call friends’ parents to speak to friends if necessary and their friends’ parents are taking the same or similar approach.
Anon says
Ha! I’m glad you appreciate my response :) Yes, exactly to all of that. We only had one portable landline until this year, and we gave it whoever was home alone or going to practice alone. We got a second one this year, as both kids had activities on the same days allll year (travel baseball and competition dance, so we are on the move a lot), and our sweet son got dropped off at a practice in the wrong spot. He was really upset, as he had no way to get in touch with us. Now they each have one that can go with them. Another unexpected bonus is that my daughter loves sleepovers, and it’s always discretely in her bag. I like knowing she can quickly get in touch with me if she needs to come home right away, even if it’s the middle of the night, and isn’t relying on waking up or asking a parent to contact me. They both have regular watches for time management, as they are expected to get themselves ready if being picked up while home alone or need to get somewhere in the neighborhood or come back home on time.
I do know folks who have the gizmo watches, and I agree the slimmed down version is nicer than the attraction of an apple watch. I still just don’t love the concept of notifications being strapped on my body (and frankly, returned my apple watch as I noticed I was looking at it subconsciously for texts frequently, so I’m clearly an outlier here). I also loved that our single phone worked for both kids for two years. In addition to sleepovers, it also went in a pocket to ski school for the last few years. The kids forget it is there, unless they need it.
They do each have my mom’s number, but they are such infrequent texters that she doesn’t ever text them any more. My daughter has grumbled that she can’t join text chains with apple watches or iPods (which is a net positive for us), but she can still take down people’s phone numbers and call them. She doesn’t feel alienated, but she also is sheltered from some of the most harmful behavior I’ve seen (truly awful things on those text threads in middle school).
Anon says
Why flip phone versus gizmo watch? we went gizmo watch but am curious about future and it sounds like you put a lot of thought into it. Right now what i love is that she can only message her parents from it.
Anon says
:) This may or may not be relevant for your circumstances — but the flip phone felt both like it was less distracting than a watch when my daughter was younger (she got it at 9, when she started to be allowed to stay home alone), and it seems to have grown with both of my kids more as they’ve aged. The gizmo is good for tracking and texting without the frills, but I really didn’t like my kids being trained to look at their wrist (I know I sound like a crazy person with that, but I realized my watch was training me to glance at my wrist all the time, and I’m not an impulsive 9 year old).
I’m also really, really, really happy with the flip phone now that my daughter is in middle school. She can’t join the crazy huge text threads of classmates, but she does have her own phone number to use to call her friends individually, which I love. The flip phone facilitates a personal call, whereas the watches favor texting. Almost every middle school parent I know is currently weighing the issue of social connection, without exposing kids to really harmful stuff on text threads and social media. I feel like we’ve threaded the needle with the flip phone — calling on a watch is clunky, and the preferred method of communicating is via text. So kids gravitate to texting each other on watches, but a flip phone is the opposite. It is SO much easier to pick up the phone and call on a flip phone than to text, so she is always going to prefer calling a friend, not texting. She walks away from a 30 min phone call SO MUCH HAPPIER and connected to friends than sending hours of texts back and forth.
anon says
Thank you for this. I hadn’t thought it through before, but you’ve convinced me.
Boston Legal Eagle says
Do all stores carry flip phones? And do your kids’ friends care that these kids have flip phones or does it not matter (not that this should be a determining factor, just curious).
Anon says
Hmmm, we got ours online. And I’m honestly not sure — my son isn’t likely to notice or care if something is cool or not (bless his heart), and that issue has never come up with my daughter. The only time she’s ever expressed frustration regarding the flip phone is when she realized last year she can’t join the text threads with apple platforms. We are a somewhat stubbornly uncool family though, so it’s possible she knows that an argument that no one carries a flip phone wouldn’t carry much water with us.
I do agree that her friends who had gizmo watches all retired the watches last year as being too young (in 5th grade), and traded up for apple watches, locked down iPhones, or iPods. Having a phone number she can exchange is enough for her to not feel excluded, though, which she appreciates.
anon says
This is what a Gizmo watch is for. I don’t think I would go with a full-blown Apple watch.
Anon says
Just posted above but +1. Also it’s cheaper so less angst if lost or broken!
anon says
This was a factor for sure! I also don’t love the idea of a kid having access to a very expensive Apple watch and all the distractions that come with that. The Gizmo is limited in its functionality, and I see that as a good thing. It’s basically the equivalent of a flip phone on your wrist, lol.
Anonymous says
My upper elementary kids would tell me that gizmos are for little kids. In my area, it feels like they’re for 3rd and maybe 4th graders. My kids would not want a Gizmo.
Anon says
Ok but that’s pretty entitled. The watch is mainly for the parents to keep track and communicate with the kid, and the talking with friends is an added bonus. I would certainly not get my 5th grader an Apple Watch on the basis on “being cool.”
Anonymous says
Not getting the cool thing (Apple watch) is a lot different from making your kid wear the uncool thing (Gizmo for an older kid).
anon says
Agree. Too freaking bad, kid.
Falllen says
We gave it to my 4th grader and it has worked well for communication, we will not be doing phone until HS at the earliest. Downside is that she sometimes forgets to charge it / wear it and can be distracted texting with friends at times, but it seems the best for our family out of all options.
anon says
We got our oldest an Apple Watch the summer between 1st and 2nd grade, primarily because there were some bullying issues at her summer camp the year before, and we wanted her to have a way to send out a “mayday” if something similar started again. We have “downtime” set up to only allow texting/calling to my husband and myself during the day, with no access to or notifications from any other apps or people. We’ve been very pleased with it for our purposes.
Anonymous says
Genuine question: If your first grader texts you that she is being bullied, what are you going to do about it in the moment? Leave work, drive to day camp, and demand to speak with management immediately? I don’t think I’d want my young child to be able to contact me from day camp for a lot of reasons. They need to be engaged with the program, not busy texting mom that they are bored or hot or don’t like their lunch. They need to try to work out peer issues with help from the adults in charge at camp, without immediate parental interference. And I have a hard enough time concentrating at work without having to worry about being interrupted by texts from my kids. If I were that worried about bullying I’d choose a different camp that I trusted more.
anon says
Day late reply so probably won’t be seen, but in case anyone checks back, in this situation, the time she did message me with our preset/predetermined signal phrase I did leave work and drive to camp to discuss, as camp management was actively trying to determine the full extent of the problems and how to respond (how to address the parents of the child who was expelled, whether teacher retraining was also needed, etc.) and we were in discussions with our kid’s therapist. So again, I acknowledge my example is extreme, but giving this as a data point of one for a case where it did make sense in our situation (long story, various Reasons, but no local family, we weren’t able to find a substitute option immediately, I have some flexibility with work but can’t manage both kids home with me every day and still work appropriately, etc., and ultimately we were satisfied with the outcome.)
Anon says
Gosh, I hate this. I coached a kid team this year and a bunch of kids with new Apple Watches felt like they had to give their parents a play by play of every time they were “wronged” (e.g., other kids weren’t doing what they wanted) or if they were hungry/tired or bumped their knee or someone took their seat or whatever stupid grievance that had. It was super disruptive and parents kept showing up with kid food orders or to talk to me about non-problems that had been resolved hours earlier. It like the kids felt compelled to tattle constantly instead of just solving the problem or speaking with me or their peers. Kids didn’t have appropriate judgement to decide what was worth texting and parents seemed to want to micromanage every single blasted thing.
If your kid feels unsafe at a camp or activity, the next steps are to teach them to advocate for themselves or to pull them from the activity. It’s not to give a 7 yo an Apple watch.
anon says
Late, so you may not see this, but trust me when I say my kid was under-reporting very serious problems. The main offender actually ended up being kicked out of the program when details came to light. So while I acknowledge an Apple watch isn’t appropriate for all situations, believe me it was for this situation. Just relaying my experience, which is hopefully an outlier.
anon says
My previously response is in mod, and it’s late so I doubt you or anyone will see this, but kid did advocate for herself to the teachers, who hadn’t seen the behaviors (other kid was smart enough to do it behind an inexperienced teacher’s back), so they therefore blamed her for allegedly crying wolf. Ultimately the truth came out and other kid was kicked out, but obviously there was some lingering underlying distrust of reporting things to authority figures. So in our case, the watch made sense.
Anon says
Apple watches and kid-to-kid texting via Apple watches and iPads have been a huge source of drama in 5th grade this year. I’m really glad we didn’t get one for our 5th grader.
Our kid does have a kid-friendly phone watch (the TicTalk) and it’s been good. It’s locked down so she can only text with and call parents, grandparents and her au pair. It’s nice to be able to reach her when needed. I’m pretty sure a flip phone would end up buried in her backpack and never answered. The watch means that she does get our messages. I don’t worry about her being to attuned to looking at her watch as she only gets texts when it’s important for a parent or caregiver to reach her. She’s not having conversations for fun. It’s pretty much exclusively for necessary logistics.
Next year is middle school so we’ll have to reevaluate our options. Absolutely no smart phone yet, but she may have aged out of a little kid watch.
anon says
When middle school arrived, we compromised with a very stripped down iPhone (an older one we already owned). DH kept it pretty locked down so apps couldn’t be downloaded without permission, added screen time limits, etc. We didn’t actually connect it to a phone line; it could only be used where there was wifi. He used an email address for texting. Can confirm that text drama is real, but I’ve also seen kids cyber bully each other through Google docs on their school-issued laptops.
Anon says
Because our kid is walking a good distance to and from school on busy roads, whatever we get our DD will need to be cellular enabled.
I really wish there was a more grown up version of a Gizmo watch that could be locked down more than an Apple watch, but wasn’t as kiddie. (Device makers, are you listening?!?!)
Anon says
Do you have your older kids (11, 13) who are strong swimmers wear a lifejacket at all times when swimming in the lake or ocean? I noticed an acquaintance that I don’t know that well posting pictures from a vacation and her older kids are wearing lifejackets to swim off a dock, jump off the side of the boat, etc. I was curious whether this is becoming a thing now because of the increased attention to water safety. I don’t really know her well enough to ask and don’t want to sound judgmental.
Anon says
No. When on a boat or a tube, yes, but I don’t even have my non-strong swimmers wear float devices when they are swimming. They can’t learn/practice swimming in a life jacket and don’t find it fun. I also think there’s more of a tendency to trust the life jacket and be lax on supervision. Instead, we keep eyes on our kids and often have a parent right there near them. Maybe if it was a big party and kids were swimming out to some far floating platform, I’d use one for my 6yo. But close supervision is still preferable.
Anonymous says
Life jackets at all times for boating, including paddleboarding and jumping off a boat in the middle of the lake to swim. I don’t make them wear life jackets to swim in a lake or the ocean right near the shore with supervision. And obviously not for surfing, although they are not yet allowed to surf without an instructor and will never, ever be allowed to surf alone.
Anonymous says
I think it depends a lot on the context. We don’t use them from the shore at my parents lake cottage on a quieter lake but we do when swimming off my BIL’s boat on a busy lake which has a sailing school and lots of activity. We use bright yellow PFDs that make the kids much more visible.
Anon says
We own a boat and we stopped requiring life jackets for our older kids once they were about 8-9. They are now 11 and 13. Our boat is large enough that life life jackets aren’t legally required in our state, but until they were strong swimmers and comfortable getting on and off the boat using the ladder, they wore them. This is in Florida.
We highly prioritize swim lessons (our 4 year old can already swim) and regularly practiced safety-focused swimming skills until our kids were basically bombproof (throw them off the side, in the ocean, and they could swim back to safety).
Anon says
Mine is 6 and not yet a strong enough swimmer to go in the ocean without one (we live in a cold climate and did not prioritize swimming lessons at a young age) but it’s hard for me to imagine having an 11 year old with anything approaching typical swimming skills wearing a life jacket. My kid already doesn’t wear one in the pool and lake. We keep a close eye still, of course.
Anon says
On a boat, it may be legally required. So my older kids wear life jackets when kayaking on the river near us because kids are legally required to. They may end up in them swimming near boats too for the same reason.
Otherwise, no.
Anon says
I grew up in the upper Midwest as a lake person in a family of sailors, so we took water safety really seriously, and now have two kids (both of whom are very strong swimmers). My brother and my dad are also life long sailors who competed in big sail boats on the great lakes (and in much smaller boats on local lakes). The rule growing up was if you were on any kind of boat, your life jacket is always on, no exceptions. Period. Swimming off the sides or just riding. We make our kids adhere to the same rules. It was a sailor’s rule, and we didn’t even bother questioning it. There are so many things that can quickly go wrong on a boat – unexpected boat movement, slip and fall, and the risk is too great, especially if you are going fast or there is a motor, and even then, it’s not always easy or quick to get back in a boat. It’s also easy to panic if you get flung unexpectedly from a boat, so a life jacket gives room for error. Same rule for jumping off the side of a boat to swim — unexpected current pushes you away from the boat, another boat drives too close, etc., always good to have a life jacket to support you, so you aren’t trying to stay afloat while trying to get back into the boat.
We do a lot of dock jumping too — if there is boat traffic nearby, kids are required to be in life jackets. If you are just jumping with an adult right next to you in a familiar body of water, I still required life jackets until about age 8 (even if they’d been pools without a life jacket for several years). Lakes have all kinds of underwater stuff going on, and visibility is low. Especially if I’m not familiar with the lake, I worry about getting tangled in weeds, or a kid getting spooked by wildlife and freaking out.
I really don’t love ocean swimming, tbh, and every time I go, I am shocked that kids aren’t in life jackets. I personally think the ocean is incredibly dangerous, more so than lakes — we were in the Outer Banks a few years ago, and my daughter got caught in a rip current. She was fine, and thankfully had on a life jacket, so again, even though she got pushed out unexpectedly, there was more room for error bc she was afloat. I looked on the news later and like three people drowned that week in the same location. Barely made the news!! Still makes my stomach clench.
anon says
100% agree with all of this. The most skilled responsible boaters I know are most likely to have everyone wear PFDs. One of the biggest risks is hitting your head.
Anonymous says
yes, I went on a liveaboard sailing trip in college and the rule was lifejackets on 100% of the time while underway. if we were anchored we could take them off. Caribbean, extremely clear water. When I can’t see, I always prefer to swim with. a life jacket.
anon says
Also in the Midwest, and we wear life jackets every single time we’re on a boat. Including the kayaks and paddleboards. We’re all good swimmers, but that really doesn’t matter when you’re out on open water, imho. Life jackets save lives, period.
Anon says
I do think it would be best to always require them for sailboats, but I don’t worry about weeds. Something could happen with weeds but it seems unlikely and like the benefit of swimming unencumbered outweighs it. I don’t even think I would want to go swimming in a lake where I was actually concerned there could be entanglement in weeds.
Anonymous says
You can tell from the responses here who grew up in a sailing/boating family :). My parents did not f*ck around with life jackets. No question.
Anon says
I grew up in a sailing and boating (lake) family and life jackets were mandatory for the young kids, but not the older ones unless we were whitewater rafting. I do think the adults were a bit too casual at times, though.
Anon says
Yeah, I’m from a sailing, swimming, surfing, and rowing family and growing up we never swam with them in the bay or ocean and they were worn while sailing / on a boat until age 10 or so.
Anon says
Yeah I’m from a sailing family and have never worn life jackets on sailboats once I was a very strong swimmer (age 12 or so, I’m guessing). I think there’s a lot of machismo in the sailing community (even among female sailors) and not wearing life jackets is part of that. I’ve also chartered much larger crewed sailboats in the Caribbean and we were never asked to wear life jackets and none of the captains or crew wore them either.
Anon says
Ha! I just came back to add this. Some of these responses are baffling to me, but I realize how much water safety was just absolutely ingrained into me as a kid. And even reading the responses is reminding me how many horror stories I heard around the lake growing up every year from folks who didn’t have on life jackets (up there with my core fear of all the people who died in cars driving on ice that was too thin during shoulder ice fishing season, which I didn’t realize until I moved to DC as an adult was not a universal fear outside of northern Michigan…)
For the person who mentioned that the benefits of “swimming unencumbered” would outweigh a life jacket in the event of an unexpected water emergency, ahhh! I feel like my dad wouldn’t forgive me if I didn’t say that there really is no benefit of swimming unencumbered, and lakes change all the time, every single day. There might be no underwater hazard for months, and then one day, something appears. I grew up swimming the same lake for an entire summer, and we were only allowed to swim from our dock to a raft without a life jacket after we passed a parent administered swim test. If we were swimming anywhere else on our lake, a life jacket was required.
Don’t even get me started on the buddy system :) :) :)
Anon says
That comment wasn’t “in the case of an unexpected water emergency” – it was specifically to the remark that weeds are something to fear. I’m not going to go through life assuming that I or my kids are seconds away from a) being entangled in weeds and b) that no one will be around to assist and it will definitely be fatal. Have you ever swum without a life jacket? It’s night and day how much more fun it is and it can ABSOLUTELY be done safely.
Anon says
Aha, that makes more sense. I read your comment as swimming unencumbered could be a benefit in an emergency, not that swimming without a life jacket has the benefit of being fun. I viscerally reacted because it was argument I did hear growing up from folks who wouldn’t wear a jacket on my parent’s boat (e.g., a life vest bc it could become tangled in a motor, so they didn’t want to wear one, which is just such a low risk compared to all the other scenarios). I do agree that swimming without a life jacket can be lovely — I *love* jumping in a cold lake, and will still jump off my parent’s swim raft for hours without a jacket, but I am a stick in the mud about wearing one when we jump in a new spot on the lake without good visibility (especially after what happened to Naya Rivera a few years ago). Interestingly, my kids love floating in them, and will throw the ball to each other for HOURS with them on.
Spirograph says
It depends for me too. I did make my kids – who are reasonably strong swimmers – wear life jackets on a lake when we were boating and swimming off the boat last summer. *I* also wore my life jacket to swim off the boat, and I’m an excellent swimmer. it was a visibility and an I-dont-know-this-lake thing.
At the ocean beach, I make the kids wear life jackets if there’s a riptide risk or if the surf is strong…unless they’re boogie boarding, then they don’t wear them.
Anon says
Absolutely not – at those ages my kids are going out sailing and surfing with very minor supervision. They’re also going to the beach or bay with friends, without adults, at that age.
We spend our summers at the beach and our kids are in and out of the water all the time. We knew they’d grow up in the water and so were adamant they’d be strong swimmers at a young age. They were swimming around age 4 and both on the summer swim team by age 6.
Honestly, an 11 or 13 year old wearing a life jacket would make me think there were physical or developmental issues.
Anon says
I tend to agree for the 13-year-old – it seems very excessive for jumping off a dock into a clear lake known for its swimming.
Anonymous says
Agreed
Anon says
Your last sentence is so judgmental, but assuming you’re not a troll, hopefully you’ve learned a little from this discussion that there are very valid reasons for older kids wearing a life jacket. I’ll also add that sometimes kids wear them even when they don’t need to because its fun!
Anon says
I am not a troll, but perhaps lakes are different than bays? Maybe we never have the “right” lifejackets because I distinctly remember them being bulky and hard to swim in and my kids complain about the same things!
FWIW, I’m probably more conservative about water safety than most in our town. I wonder if its a beach town thing – you’re taught the dangers and the hazards from a young age, you know how to observe the water, and you’re not allowed out until you’re a very strong swimmer.
Heck, by 13 you’re only a few years away from becoming a lifeguard or sailing instructor yourself. Ocean lifeguards can start at age 16 here – and I know plenty of 16 year olds who make the squad – which requires a 2 mile row in the ocean and a .75 mile open water ocean swim, among other things (surf dash, run, and calisthenics tests)
Anon says
I agree with this. It would be unusual for *most people* to see a 13-year-old wearing a life jacket while swimming at a nice lake shore with his parents around. That isn’t a high-risk situation.
Anon says
It seems like ocean culture and lake culture are different. In lake boating circles, the most experienced boaters and strongest swimmers are in life jackets, and it has literally nothing to do with how strong of a swimmer you are. It is assumed you are a strong swimmer, but are taking into account the uncertainty of the water. It doesn’t seem to be the case in ocean boating. It’s odd to me, as I think the ocean is as unpredictable – if not more unpredictable – than a lake, but I do agree that you see fewer people in life jackets on boats on the ocean than on boats in a lake.
anon says
Only a few posters have identified their location, but I suspect water temperature may affect the local norms. Small lakes or subtropical ocean in Florida or S. California might be a little more forgiving, but in PNW ocean temperatures, you physically lose the ability to swim within minutes.
Anonymous says
I grew up in SoCal and the ocean is pretty cold there too.
Anon says
I grew up sailing on the ocean in Maine but we sail along the coast, not the open ocean, and you have at least 30 minutes before you’d lose consciousness (at least in the summer months, which is the only time we sail).
Anon says
+1. Ack, such a freaking judgmental statement it makes me cringe. FWIW, the real boaters I know are absolutely judging a parent who sends teens out on a boat alone without life jackets. Makes you look like a novice who doesn’t know what they are doing, and hasn’t been around long enough to appreciate the risks. Just a fact.
Anonymous says
Yep. Boating without a life jacket is like driving without a seatbelt or biking without a helmet or skiing without a helmet. As my husband would say, only a knucklehead would do it.
Anon says
I’m a third generation sailor, so my kids are fourth gen. We are certainly not novices.
That being said – sailing around here is done in protected bays in optis and sunfish, with the occasional laser or lightening.
Anon says
My last comment – but I’ve been on sunfishes and optis my whole life, and I seriously cannot imagine permitting my kid to go on one, especially without a parent, without a life jacket in any body of water. We used to race flying juniors and catamarans, and same thing. I know I’m not going to change your mind, but to every boater I grew up with, it would be like getting in a car without a seat belt or riding a bike without a helmet. Sure, it’s usually fine, until it’s not.
Anon says
I disagree that the novices are more likely to skip life jackets. I think it’s similar to skiing and horse-riding. Often the people who skip helmets at those activities are usually really experienced. You would never catch me doing either without helmets but I’m a complete novice at both and know I’d kill myself. The elite ski jumpers I know don’t wear helmets for normal downhill skiing.
Anon says
I disagree that novices are less likely to wear life jackets as well. I’m most familiar with this dynamic in skiing – experienced skiers are more likely to skip wearing a helmet and more likely (in the backcountry) to die in avalanches. They take more more risks and display a lot of cognitive biases (“it can never happen to me.”)
anon says
I think the comparison to helmets for horseriding is apt, because I would also judge people who skip safety gear in that unpredictable situation as either unaware or stupid. And teens may have good swimming skills, but even the most responsible teens do not have fully developed risk-assessment abilities.
Anonymous says
Any experienced skier or rider who does not wear a helmet is reckless. Experienced skiers and riders are going faster and taking bigger risks than beginners, and they are not immune to catching an edge or having a horse get spooked.
Anon says
I agree there are valid safety reasons for wearing them in some situations but come on, no one wears life jackets because they’re fun. Especially not teenagers! lol.
Anon says
OMG ahhh I know I’m not going to change your mind based on your response, but life jackets for kids on boats without parents would be an absolute deal breaker. I am a boater kid above, and man, I heard all the stories that happened to even very experienced kids doing dumb kid sh*t.
Anonymous says
I grew up in a boating family on long island sound. Everyone wears a life jacket when the boat is in open water, including adults. Adults/ kids that swim and behave like adults have the light inflatable style. When anyone is on a tube etc they have a full life jacket on.
Sailboats- everyone in a LJ. Paddleboards? LJ.
When I was growing up, adults and teens did not wear LJs. When my dad was in his 40s, completely sober, he fell off his anchored boat in Long Island Sound and was swept away by the current despite being a seasoned boater and a strong swimmer. By the time my uncle pulled up the anchor, my dad was 100 yards or more away. We threw a life ring and he hung onto it. He was pulled out by a fisherman and the water was 59 degrees. Ever since that day he requires everyone on his boats in an LJ at all times.
FWIW life jackets have gotten increasingly comfortable and common, just like bike helmets and ski helmets.
A small lake where kids are jumping off a dock and swimming in ~10ish feet of water with adult supervision, no life jackets. Lake Winnipesauke? Life jackets for all.
Anonymous says
Oh- and swimming in a lake/ocean off a beach, no LJ unless it’s a unique circumstance. But our kids don’t go beyond lifeguarded areas. Kids are swim-team-level swimmers ages 8-12.
Anonymous says
Nope.
SC says
I would not make an older kid who is a strong swimmer wear a life jacket to swim in a lake or the ocean near the shore, or to jump off a dock or a moored boat in calm water. I would require them while doing watersports, boating, or in open water.
Anon says
This.
Anon says
I’m a former beach lifeguard, my kid is a current beach lifeguard (rookie!), and we’re very much a water family (swimming, surfing, sailing, paddle boarding, and plenty of trips on friends’ motorboats), I’d say no. Obviously we take water safety very seriously in our family, but also a lot of the activities we do are things that can’t be done with a lifejacket.
In our town making the beach patrol is pretty much a rite of passage, and the tests and day to day lifeguarding are all done without lifejackets. You can work for the BP at 15 in a non-guard capacity, and at 16 you can be a lifeguard – which means you’re guarding a beach solo (at least at times.- some are solo assignments and some are partnered, but everyone rotates). Lifeguard tryouts include a mile row in a row boat in the ocean and a mile swim in the bay and a half mile swim in the ocean, among other things. Lifeguards also work out twice a day while at work (morning squad-wide PT for running, swimming, or calisthenics and then while working they get a break to row). So, by 15 many kids are either able of passing the test or working towards it. This is obviously all done without lifejackets, which may influence the age at which kids stop wearing them for swimming.
Swimming: we never wear lifejackets in the ocean, however, if its unsafe to swim that day we do not swim. Or, if its unsafe to go out past a certain point, we do not do that. Kids learn very, very early on how to identify a rip current and what to do if caught in one. Younger kids don’t do a ton of open water swimming in the ocean – mostly playing in the waves waist to chest deep in front of the lifeguards. If swimming off a dock in the bay, we require close supervision and lifejackets until maybe age 8 or 9, and then supervision (with the option of lifejackets or tubes or something if they want them) until they’re 13 or so. While we certainly get a current when the tides are changing here, its not enough to sweep someone away. That being said, kids are taught to observe the tide, current, and to evaluate the water. For example, jumping from things is only allowed during high tide. While we don’t live near the inlet, there are inlets in our town. One of the first things kids are taught is to never, ever, ever swim in the inlet and to not ever take boats there either. Almost once a summer someone from out of town who is here on vacation drowns swimming in the inlet, so, unfortuataley, there are frequent reminders as to why we don’t do this.
Boating: Lifejackets are required on boats for anyone under age 12, this is a legal requirement. Motorboats in our area are small and as previously mentioned, our bay isn’t as dangerous as other areas mentioned here. Lifejackets are worn by everyone for tubing or skiing.
Sailing: Sailing lessons and racing require lifejackets for all ages here. Most sailing is in optis and sunfish. We make kids wear lifejackets when sailing on their own until age 12 in an opti and 14 in a sunfish.
Other boating / paddling: kayaking, paddle boarding, and row boats: we follow the same rules: must be in a lifejacket until you’re 12 regardless, and 14 when you’re on your own.
Obviously surfing cannot be done with a lifejacket. When its cold everyone wears a wetsuit, so that has added buoyancy, plus they’re wearing a leash. We don’t allow our kids to be the only ones in the water – they either need a surfing buddy, a lifeguard on duty, or someone to supervise.
Kids were in year round swim classes from a really young age, do summer swim team starting at age 5 or 6 and continue through high school. They also did every single level of swim lesson offered; they hated that many other kids got to stop once they were decent swimmers, but we made them complete ever level and do junior lifeguarding. When you live on the water, it’s just so necessary. In addition to being strong swimmers, junior lifeguarding teaches life saving, evaluating the water, weather, and risks, and first aid – while we taught them all of this on our own we wanted it reinforced by the class too.
In addition to summer activities mentioned above, one of our kids swims year round for her school and the other kid rows for his school’s crew team. They also both did scouting as kids, which I do trust taught more safety skills.
Anon says
Where do you live? This sounds like an awesome place for kids to grow up and gradually take on more risks and responsibilities.
anon says
Not OP of the thread but sounds a lot like my coastal MA hometown.
Anon says
Which town is that? I have family who grew up in Marblehead and it’s the cutest thing to see the kids out sailing.
anon says
Cohasset
Boston Legal Eagle says
We’re not a boating/sailing family so can’t speak to that (though if we were on a boat, I think we’d all be in life jackets just because of the novelty), but really curious about people putting life jackets on kids swimming in the ocean, once they’re old enough to swim. We’re near the Atlantic Ocean, so would go to North Shore or Cape Cod beaches and I wouldn’t think to put a life jacket on my 8 year old who is a fairly strong swimmer. Granted we are usually in or near the water when he’s there, but I would be fine with him going off on his own in a few years. I don’t see any teens in life jackets on the beach here.
Anonymous says
I think most people mean swimming off an anchored boat in the ocean.
My kids either don’t go swimming in the ocean without an adult or they are old enough to be in, say, waist deep water .+ waves (eg, outer cape- they don’t go deeper because of the sharks!).
Anon says
The lake we go to is shaped almost like a quarry (but steep hills instead of vertical walls) with a super steep drop off below the water. It is often 30-50′ deep at the end of a short dock with about 2′ of visibility in the water (i.e., I cannot see my belly button when treading water). All kids wear life jackets to swim off the dock and also while boating, and they are required to put on a life jacket even to step onto or sit on the dock. There’s just no wiggle room if someone hit their head and went under. They’d be gone almost immediately and you’d never find them in the very deep, murky water.
Adults will sometimes swim near shore without life jackets, but we also don’t do stupid stuff things near this lake that could result in a slip and fall or hitting our head. Kids, tween and teens just don’t have that judgement.
-parent of two kids with years of swim team experience
Vicky Austin says
We finally got through a night without nursing, so we’re…done??? Sorta???
DS celebrated by promptly barfing up last night’s dinner on the kitchen floor though. Can’t win ’em all.
Anonymous says
Congratulations Vicky!!