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I really like this style of button-down that J.Crew refers to as a “popover” — more than a shirt that has buttons all the way down. They are easier to wear, and a little bit more casual, but to me, way more comfortable. I don’t think they replace a classic button-down that you’d wear under a suit, but for regular office wear, I think they’re super fun. I love the print on this — the all-over graphic flower print with the “double stamped” sleeves. It also comes in this fun chevron. I’d pair either of these with white pants for extra color contrast and summery vibes. The shirt is on sale for $28, marked down from $69.50, in sizes XXS–3X. Classic Popover Shirt Looking for other washable workwear? See all of our recent recommendations for washable clothes for work, or check out our roundup of the best brands for washable workwear. This post contains affiliate links and CorporetteMoms may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support!Sales of note for 4.18.24
(See all of the latest workwear sales at Corporette!)
- Ann Taylor – 50% off full-price dresses, jackets & shoes; $30 off pants & skirts; extra 50% off sale styles
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything; extra 20% off purchase
- Eloquii – 50% off select styles; 60% off swim; up to 40% off everything else
- J.Crew – Mid-Season Sale: Extra 60% off sale styles; up to 50% off spring-to-summer styles
- Lands’ End – 30% off full-price styles
- Loft – Spring Mid-Season Sale: Up to 50% off 100s of styles
- Nordstrom: Free 2-day shipping for a limited time (eligible items)
- Talbots – Spring Sale: 40% off + extra 15% off all markdowns; 30% off new T by Talbots
- Zappos – 29,000+ women’s sale items! (check out these reader-favorite workwear brands on sale, and some of our favorite kids’ shoe brands on sale)
Kid/Family Sales
- Carter’s – Up to 70% off baby items; 50% off toddler & kid deals & 40% off everything else
- Hanna Andersson – Up to 50% off spring faves; 25% off new arrivals; up to 30% off spring
- J.Crew Crewcuts – Up to 60% off sale styles; up to 50% off kids’ spring-to-summer styles
- Old Navy – 30% off your purchase; up to 75% off clearance
- Target – Car Seat Trade-In Event (ends 4/27); BOGO 25% off select skincare products; up to 40% off indoor furniture; up to 20% off laptops & printers
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And — here are some of our latest threadjacks of interest – working mom questions asked by the commenters!
- If you’re a working parent of an infant with low sleep needs, how do you function at work when you’re in the throes of baby’s sleep regression?
- Should I cut my childcare down to 12 hours a month if I work from home?
- Will my baby have speech delays if we raise her bilingual?
- Has anyone given birth in a teaching hospital?
- My child eats everything, and my friends’ kids do not – how should I handle? In general, what is the best way to handle when your child has some skill/ability and your friend’s child doesn’t have that skill/ability?
- ADHD moms, give me your tips to help with things like behavior in the classroom, attention to detail, etc?
- I think I suffer from mom rage…
- My husband and kids are gone this weekend – how should I enjoy my free time?
- I’m struggling to be compassionate with a SAHM friend who complains she doesn’t have enough hours of childcare.
- If you exclusively formula fed, what tips do you have for in the hospital and coming home?
- Could I take my 4-yo and 8-yo on a 7-8 day trip to Paris, Lyon, and Madrid?
CPA Lady says
Follow up on the “do we buy a bigger house” question from last week: We went to see it on Friday and are putting an offer in this morning. I am both excited and completely freaking out. Fingers crossed everything works out. If you need me I’ll be over here breathing into a bag.
Anonymous says
Yay! I hope all goes well. It’s a huge deal.
NYCer says
Congrats! I hope it works out.
Anonanonanon says
Congrats! Fingers crossed for you!
anne-on says
Congratulations!! If you need tips on packing/moving with kids I’m sure lots of us would be able to chime in :)
Realist says
Amazing! Good luck! I also highly recommend using an inspector that is trained in doing thermal imaging scans. Saved us on one contract where we walked away from a house with significant hidden water damage issues that the seller said they “forgot to add to the disclosure,” and on another house they caught a plumbing leak on new pipe work that could have done thousands of dollars of damage if left I repaired behind the wall (and still was a $1500 in repair work). I’m a big believer in hiring the best inspector you can—the ones your realtor hates because they kill contracts.
Anonymous says
CPA Lady, I think once you’re moved in and enjoying the space, this will make your heart so happy. I , too, hate spending money. But we’ve done some major home projects recently that we really went back and forth over and waited years before actually getting it done. And now, I just get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when I take a deep breath and look around this space that I love so much. That will be you, too. In whatever house you end up in – I don’t want to make you sad if this house doesn’t work out. Because if it doesn’t work out, it is for a reason. And wherever you end up will make your heart the happiest.
GCA says
Congrats and good luck!!
Anon says
…And last night our school district reversed itself from option for in-person vs. distance (after a month long campaign pressuring families to select their full-year binding option by last week) to all distance learning. I suspect it’s because the number of people who opted for in-person outnumbered the teachers who did and the teacher’s union started vehemently lobbying against it. Distance learning is not a sufficient replacement for pre-K-3 ( I feel very differently about older kids and think it can (although isn’t always) more successful there, and really they should have bifurcated this by age level in the first place – also so, so dumb). Also the young kids are far less likely to get and transmit this virus. It is just so, so dumb on so many levels. That and a poorly worded and timed email about fully opening our offices soon just sent me into an utter rage spiral last night. This morning I’m just sad and depressed. My kid is so, so much happier when she is with peers. I guess we’re going to have to look into this podding thing.
AwayEmily says
I teach at a university where there will be in-person classes and I am honestly so mad that they are bringing thousands of students (many from hotspot states) into our city that currently has almost no cases…AND YET elementary schools will not be open. My kids are still in daycare so this does not affect me personally (well, except for the fact that I am going to be in classrooms with all those college students) but I’m just so angry at our stupid capitalist society that says the risks of reopening college are worth it because $$$ but because elementary school doesn’t bring in any cash, it’s not worth trying to figure out a solution.
Anonymous says
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Anon says
Yep. I work at a university too and it’s very weird to me that our city’s daycares are open and our university is open but the K-12 schools will be shut. I know it’s about $$ and collective bargaining agreements, but it’s just illogical to me. Can’t we just agree that kids under some age (10? Given what we know about virus transmission) should have in person classes and everyone else should learn online?
NYCer says
I completely agree. It does not make sense at all. We (the country) should be prioritizing in person teaching for elementary school.
Anonymous says
The answer is to shut down the universities, not open the schools.
AwayEmily says
Sure, that’s why I didn’t say “open the schools,” I said “try to figure out a solution.”
Anon says
Universities will be a complete disaster this fall. If opening bars led to surges we are seeing now, colleges will be no better. All their precautions will be for naught when students socialize and drink, an almost irresistible temptation for young people in that setting.
I feel bad for incoming freshman in particular and sad for the families who are paying huge sums and will probably experience a truly mediocre situation in the best case scenario.
Anon says
I think administrators are mostly not in denial that students are going to drink and socialize. The idea is to keep the faculty and staff relatively insulated from the undergrads, through a variety of methods – letting people teach online where possible, having small classes in huge lecture halls, installing plexiglass barriers around teaching spaces, etc. Also many colleges are now planning to make all incoming freshman get a negative test shortly before coming to campus. It’s not perfect – some people will acquire the virus right after testing, and there will be some false negatives – but it’s much better than nothing and should considerably cut down on the number of infected people arriving on campus next month.
Anon says
*all incoming students, I meant (for the testing). Not just freshmen.
AwayEmily says
Yeah…I think my university has done as good a job as one could expect at keeping university employees safe, and they have one of the better testing regimens I’ve heard of (pooled saliva testing, wastewater testing, etc). To be honest I’m less worried about faculty/staff and more worried about members of the community — people who work at grocery stores, convenience stores, bars — basically all the places students go that don’t have the resources of the University to protect them.
Anon says
Yeah, it’s been disappointing that there’s no discussion of protecting the larger community, only the university community. I do hope that with universal mask wearing, there will be less transmission through short term incidental contact. My sense from reading the research is that masks aren’t as effective in settings like classrooms where people spend all day breathing the same air, but that they’re very effective at stopping transmission in settings like grocery stores where an infected person would be in and out in under an hour. Bars and restaurants will be a problem though, since masks aren’t possible in those settings.
Anonymous says
Do you happen to be in MoCo?…We (thankfully) do not have a grade-schooler yet but I feel the same way as you and am just as ragey. I’m so mad about how this will widen inequality (parents who can afford tutors vs those who can’t, internet access, etc..). Plus the fact that school is a safe space for many students whose homes aren’t.
Would you be open to actual homeschooling? It can be much less time intensive than MCPS’s proposal of kids sitting in front of a screen for at least 4hrs a day. Homeschooling under 3rd grade is about 1-3hrs/day, and it can be broken up throughout the day to fit your schedule. You can find pods/homeschool co-ops on FB groups. It seems like our 3YOs preschool will not be able to financially open so we’ll be doing homeschool preschool.
Anon says
Fairfax.
Spirograph says
I’m in MoCo.
I had a pretty extensive spreadsheet sorting out options about learning pods, tutors, etc etc, but the announcement last night of virtual school through January just wiped it out. I refuse to do this. I recognize and regret that I’m part of the HUGE problem of education inequality that is going to reach crisis levels this year, but my first choice remains private school 5 days/week *if* we can get a spot. The only practical option left to me is homeschool + hiring a teacher a few hours a day for my two school-age kids. If there is no in-person component to public school, I don’t see a point to working around their schedule or waiting to see if MCPS figured out distance learning better than they did last year (which was abysmal).
Tea/Coffee says
I’m in MoCo also… 4th and incoming K.
I have told DH and DD (the 4th grader) that we are doing MCPS DL for two weeks, and then we’ll re evaluate. DD is academically advanced and the spring DL was painful beyond belief bc they taught to the lowest common denominator.
DH and I will evaluate DS, bit I do not want him on zoom 5-6 hrs/day, nor do I think he can learn effectively in that way.
I am prepping to do actual homeschool. Lots of it will be evenings/weekends, and I might not sleep for the rest of the year.
Prepping for this = gameplanning but not actually buying anything, and dubbing DH the “summer camp director” as I will pretty much be the “headmistress of homeschool academy.”
This is not a good week. I am hitting a very serious wall and the end point keeps moving. I am only sane right now bc we are spending lots of time outside and the winter is going to suck a big one.
FVNC says
We are also scrambling to find a spot in private schools, on the assumption that in-person classes will not resume in our district (no final decision yet). I hate it, but I need my job and can’t watch a six-year old second grader full time.
Anon says
I’m sorry :(. I have to say I don’t really understand why teachers feel they shouldn’t have to be in the classroom. I get that there are risks, but daycare teachers and other essential workers are either taking those risks or losing their jobs. I can see the argument that 7-12 teachers can do their jobs just as well from home and should be given that option, but K-6 teachers can’t, as you noted. It just seems to me that a kindergarten teacher is substantively no different than a preschool teacher, and should either return to the classroom or quit/take unpaid leave so they can hire someone else.
Anonymous says
I mean yesterday like 40 people on here were ready to tar and feather an au pair for taking a vacation but sure let’s insist teachers return to work in person inside all day or get fired.
Anonymous says
Remember, wealthy women who can pay for an au pair have more right to safety than public school teachers.
anon says
To add on to Anne–
By wealthy, you mean families who need affordable child care (i.e., cannot afford a nanny) and who have schedules that don’t work with daycare (e.g., police, military, doctors) or kids who cannot use a group care setting for whatever reason (e.g., autism, anxiety, immune compromised).
In my area, the wealthy families hire professional nannies and housekeepers. Au pairs are for those who cannot afford a nanny because it’s a lot of work and stress to be a host family.
Anonymous says
Day care is much less expensive than hiring an au pair and buying a house with adequate space to host one.
anon says
That depends on your area and circumstances. It’s far from universally true.
Anon says
Au pairs are like the cheapest childcare there is? You provide them food and lodging so the out of pocket costs are very low. I’ve never used one so I don’t have a dog in this fight but I’ve never thought of au pairs as a particularly wealthy thing. Nannies, yes. But not au pairs. DH grew up solidly middle class (real blue collar middle class, not wealthy people who think they’re middle class) and his family had a series of au pairs because it was cheaper than daycare and much cheaper than a nanny.
anon says
Au pairs are commonly used by military families for this reason. They can cover an odd or changing schedule and aren’t as expensive as a nanny.
Anonymous says
Where we live, an au pair is $20K annually out of pocket, plus food and lodging, and hours of care are limited. Day care is $12K/year or less for 60 hours a week.
anon says
Daycare for my 18 month old was $2800/month. It dropped to $2000/month for my 3 yo. For both, it was $4800/month.
Nannies right now are asking for $25-30/hr for two kids, plus benefits including health insurance.
Anonymous says
You’re comparing an aupair to daycare for one child. Where I am, daycare costs are super high and housing costs are low so aupair is about have the cost of daycare for two kids.
Anon says
I live in a very LCOL area in the Midwest and paid almost $2k/month for daycare for one infant. If you don’t care about school district or having a newer home, you can buy a 4 bedroom house in the ~$150k range. So yeah…lots of people with space for an au pair who can’t swing daycare costs, especially with more than one child.
ElisaR says
day care is $12k a year? is that a joke?
Anon says
I can see daycare being $12k a year for older kids. We pay $1750/month (so $21k a year) for 2 preschoolers (7am-6pm). Even when we had 2 infants we still paid under 30k a year.
And we live in a DC suburb, so not a particularly LCOL area. Houses in my town are 400k and up.
Walnut says
We’re in the 50k/year club for daycare for three kids. It’s…a delight. Super loved paying that bill when they weren’t open as well.
Anon says
@ElisaR, in my Midwest college town, $12k/year is probably about average for a daycare center for a young toddler. In-home is less; there are some centers, including mine, that are more. We paid $18k for the 0-2 year old room and $15k for the 2 year old room, but we go to literally the most expensive center in town. We toured a center that charged less than $12k even for infants. I think when you compare housing:daycare cost ratios we actually pay more for daycare than people in places like the Bay Area and NYC. From my friends in the Bay Area, it seems like daycare there costs twice as much but housing costs 5-10 times as much. I have a 3,000 sq foot single family home that I paid $300k for; my friends have townhouses in the ~$2M range.
Anon4This says
HAHAHAH THIS!!! THIS!!! As if teachers teaching in PPE is the same as a frontline healthcare worker who has been literally trained to treat infections patients.
I generally enjoy and rely on this community, but damn, the Karen undertones are always so strong here.
Anonymous says
Huh? The comparisons have mostly been to daycare teachers, who are also not trained in using PPE and didn’t choose their jobs expecting to put their lives on the line. Daycare teachers were deemed essential workers and many of them didn’t get to stay home, even during the strictest lockdowns. I don’t understand why it’s immoral to say that K-6 teachers are also essential workers. In a perfect world, everything that’s not essential would be shutdown, to make things safer for the essential workers and people trying to access essential services. There were very few cases in daycares when the rest of the world was shut down; it’s not a coincidence that cases in daycares got much more frequent when bars and restaurants and everything else reopened. But even if the US did that, I bet the teachers would STILL be striking.
anne-on says
That is an intentionally incorrect and unkind reading of the situation with the au pair and I think you know that.
A better analogy would be ‘my child’s daycare teacher, who now lives with us and manages our homeschooling, is planning to travel to states with rising cases for her vacation and participate in unsafe activities while there. Can this group help me figure out how to communicate the risks to her/our family, and work with her on alternative arrangements, up to and including finding other employment if we can’t agree on the same level of caution.’
And as I stated yesterday, I am SO over people painting families who use au pairs as exploiting slave labor.
Anonymous says
Maybe spend less time trolling and more time brushing up on your reading comprehension skills.
Anon says
But why does a public school teacher have more right to stay home than a daycare teacher or a college professor? Or for that matter, a grocery store worker or a doctor? It’s certainly a privilege to be able to do your job from home, but a lot of people across various industries don’t have that privilege and have to either return in person or lose their jobs. I don’t understand what makes K-12 teachers more special than the many other essential workers.
My doctor and scientist friends think this pandemic is going to last at least 5 years. Are we all just accepting that kids are going to have no education for that long?! We didn’t and can’t control this like other countries did (because of the choices our citizens made and continue to make), so we have to learn to live with this virus, which will involve nonzero risk for a lot of people.
Anonymous says
I absolutely refuse to accept that because our corrupt government and idiot citizens chose to let the virus rage out of control, my kids and my relatives who are teachers should just suck it up and walk into a slaughterhouse in September.
Anonymous says
Why are they different than daycare workers? Why are they different than college professors? Life has to go on. Teachers are not so special that they get to opt out of this pandemic. Plenty of people are working in less than ideal conditions. Elementary schools are not a ‘slaughterhouse’ they are low risk.
Anonymous says
None of those people should be going to work either. What we need right now is a general strike to bring the federal, state, and local governments to their knees and force an effective pandemic response.
Anon says
Elementary schools with masks, face shields and spread out desks are the furthest thing there is from a slaughterhouse. The rest of the world has had schools open for months and there have been virtually no cases in elementary schools. The science is clear that kids under 10 transmit the virus way less effectively than teens and adults. Being in a teachers lounge with fellow teachers for 30 minutes is a greater risk to a teacher than being in a classroom with elementary schoolers all day, but none of the teachers I know are pausing their social lives.
Pogo says
Because they have unions and collective bargaining, which is clearly working for them vs grocery store workers who do not.
I agree that the answer is not forcing everyone to working in person whether they like it or not, but to effectively control the pandemic with a coordinated federal response. Clearly not happening, so idk what to do.
Anonymous says
I don’t think any teacher at any level should be in the classroom until we get this virus under control. What we need is a real national lockdown with strictly enforced masking, with concurrent mobilization to increase testing and contact tracing capacity. If we started today, we might be able to open schools in many places safely mid-fall.
It’s all about economics. Colleges are pretending they’re planning to stay open so they can collect tuition and room and board. Day cares and preschools and summer camps are open so they can collect tuition. Politicians are pressuring public schools to open so that employers can force employees to return to the office. It’s all being done to help the wealthy get even wealthier, at the expense of workers and children and the elderly and the disadvantaged. When all of these people who have been staying home are suddenly packed into crowded, poorly ventilated classrooms and offices, within weeks the entire country will look like New York did in the spring. I know so many parents who don’t think it’s safe to send their kids to school, and so many teachers who don’t think it’s safe to go back to the classroom, who are just throwing up their hands and accepting that they and their children might well die or suffer lifelong disability because they feel they have no other choice.
Having been through a teacher strike as a kid, I have until now been opposed to teachers’ unions. Now I see the value of unions in protecting the interests of students as well as teachers. In my right-to-work state, schools are opening in person despite the fact that we are poised to become a viral hot spot. In my home state, where unions are strong, the large districts are going on-line only.
Realist says
Yes. I am disappointed in anyone piling on teachers. I feel in an impossible situation, and I don’t think it is any better in their shoes. The federal government has completely failed to realize that there is no functioning economy with the virus, so they didn’t prioritize containing the virus. It looks more like they prioritized what they wanted things to look like as if the virus was under control–which was 100% focused on the economy and not on the people that drive that economy. Everyone is paying a huge cost for that failure. I am so, so, so mad right now. But my anger is not directed to schools or teachers. My anger is focused on the White House and the Senate. The House plans for getting everyone through the pandemic aren’t perfect, but they are miles above anything being offered by the GOP-controlled branches right now.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
x1,000,000. Dr. Peter Hotez, who sits on The White House Task Force for COVID-19 and was mentored by Fauci has been shouting this from the rooftops/on national news – that if we roll out some type of national strategy NOW we still have a decent shot of a semblance of normalcy by September-October. State/local officials can try to do what they can, but there’s a much larger danger of re-surges if there’s no national plan (and safety net…but that’s a lost cause for now).
And yes, I’m effing SICK of paying daycare tuition, with no discount, at our relatively upmarket daycare/school because they’re “open” when in reality, 50% or more of folks who send their kids there/able to work from home have kept their kids at home while my state and city goes through a surge. I realize at the same time how lucky we are to even have this option. But, the blame isn’t all on the daycare. And it’s DEFINITELY not on the teachers in this country. It’s larger, structural failures.
Anon says
A lot of schools in my area are really doing nothing to reassure their staff that they are taking even the most basic safety precautions like mandating masks for high school age kids. I understand why teachers would feel the need to object if it seems no one is even making an attempt to have a coherent plan for workplace safety and accommodations aren’t made for those with pre-existing conditions.
That said, I do hope schools can open. They just need to TRY to show the staff they care about health and safety.
anon says
Our district had mandated masks for all, splitting classes to allow for social distancing, providing PPE for teachers and students, hiring a consultant to test school ventilation systems, and enhanced cleaning. Teachers still objected and we’re now full DL this fall. (We’re not in a hot spot and have only seen a very small uptick so far.)
Anon says
I’m sorry. That’s so disappointing.
Anon says
Yeah I live in a liberal, highly educated area (college town) and I was pretty shocked our public schools didn’t mandate masks. My 2 year old has to wear one at daycare! Elementary age kids can definitely wear them. There was a huge backlash, so then they said junior high and high school students have to wear them and K-6 students have to carry one with them (!?). WTF, why not just have everyone wear one? I think people are taking false comfort in the fact that we’re not a hotspot now, but that will change when the college students return, I’m sure.
Anon says
Anti-mask sentiment has become politicized and that’s why there’s a fear of mandating mask wearing
Anon says
Yeah, I get that masks are political (although increasingly less so, I think? hope?) but our school district went for Hillary by like 40 points in 2016 so I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion here, as evidenced by the huge public backlash to not mandating masks for kids. Plus they were always mandated for teachers and staff so I actually think it was less about politics and more about “can kids effectively wear masks,” which I think is silly. If 2 and 3 year olds can do it at daycare, kindergartners can do it at school.
Anonymous says
To Pogo above saying teachers aren’t pausing their social lives- my partner is a teacher and hasn’t even gone to the grocery store since March. His colleagues are, every one of them, being extremely careful in their personal lives. Same with our kids’ preschool teachers, who we know socially as well as through school. Maybe this is a state by state thing but around here teachers are doing a great job keeping us all safe.
Anonymous says
So frustrating! Thankfully our school district seems to be distinguishing between K-6 vs 7-12 plans.
anne-on says
I agree that K-5 is a WHOLE different beast than 6th and up and I am SO mad that districts are not universally acknowledging that and trying their best to accommodate in-person learning for the younger students. As much as I desperately want my rising 3rd grader to go in person, I also acknowledge that K-2 students need that in-person instruction so much more as that is where the building blocks of writing/math/reading are laid.
Also, it is SO much easier (frustrating, yes, but skill-wise, easier) to enforce reading/writing/math time than to flat out teach HOW to read/write/ do math.
I would also be looking into pods. Fwiw, the handwriting without tears workbooks have been amazing for us from printing through cursive.
Anonymous says
This. NY Times had an article yesterday about how younger kids are not only less likely to contract covid they are also much less likely to transmit it compared to adults. The risks associated with elementary schools are not different from daycares and daycare is open in many places. The risk to teachers is low compared to many open activities like restaurants and bars that are full of adults.
It’s interesting the attitude that many of the teachers take here. In Europe, schools stayed open for children of essential workers even when it got really bad in some places. They had an overabundance of teachers volunteering for those shifts. There are tons of pictures of schools around the world with teachers teaching in face shields and masks and kids sitting at distanced desks. The lack of priority we put on public education is shocking.
Anon says
All of this. I want to know how many of the striking teachers have been to a packed bar or restaurant in the last two weeks. Based on the teachers I know, I would guess well over 50%. I also think that even once we have the virus under control in the public health sense (hospitals not overwhelmed, positive test rates under 5%, fast turnaround times for tests, etc.) teachers are still going to refuse to go back because the individual risks to them will not have changed. They teachers I know are waiting for the eradication of Covid or an extremely effective vaccine that is basically guaranteed to protect them, and those things are not coming for years, if not decades.
Anon FCPS says
+1,000,000
Fairfax (and the other school systems going through the same thing) made this impossible by treating Kindergarteners the same as seniors. They should have started with asking how many K-2 teachers are willing to go in, provided they have adequate PPE and the kids are spread out, then placed kids in those classrooms, same with kids with learning disabilities and younger ESOL and FARMS kids. The numbers weren’t going to work out for high schoolers at all, given high school teachers are specialized by subject areas.
Again feelings.
Anon says
We’re also full DL. Our daycare has been closed since March and is talking about opening in August, but that is at risk with rising cases. There are some daycares open, but it’s spotty. I’m not aware of any childcare options other than a nanny or having parents stay home. We’re in a spot where there is community spread, but not in a hot spot (i.e., mid-Atlantic).
I’m really flabbergasted by the whole thing. The government wont do anything to reduce community spread, leaving gyms, bars, tattoo parlors and other social venues open. But teachers wont agree to go back unless it’s 100% safe. It’s a stand off and no one seems to care about kids or parents. Our schools are proposing that my 6 yo have 5 1/2 hours of DL per day and are asking parents to supervise. Leaving aside that this is developmentally inappropriate, many many families can’t do this. Tons of kids are going to get virtually zero education this year.
Our education system has shown zero ability to adapt or find ways to reach kids. Any in person meet ups between teachers and students (even outside and distanced) have been tabled because of the risk of an armed shooter. Teachers are similarly unwilling to even try to meet with SPED or ELL students in person, even with masks and protections. Any risk at all is too big. But I know these same teachers are having backyard BBQs and taking trips to the beach. It’s all ridiculous.
Anonymous says
The problem here isn’t the teachers, it’s the government. The government won’t make the hard choices necessary to tamp down community spread and make it safe for teachers and students to return to school. Everyone is barking up the wrong tree here. The problem isn’t schools (or the economy or anything else), it’s the virus. Fix the virus situation and then you will be able to deal with schools and all the rest.
Anonymous says
I don’t see any teachers or teachers unions calling for restaurants/bars/spas etc to be close and masks to be mandatory so that teachers can get back to work.
Realist says
I have seen many teachers calling for exactly this. I won’t join a pile on that blames teachers when many are in a risk category for Covid. This is 100% the fault of the federal government for not mobilizing a sensible national responds to contain the virus and prioritize reopening schools. Blame lies with the White House and the Senate and the full force of my fury (growing by the day) is aimed on them.
Anon says
Every single teacher I know has been doing at least some socializing and traveling this summer, and the ones that have kids have their own kids in daycare or summer camp despite the fact that they’re not working – even from home – currently. I find it hard not to judge the hypocrisy in that. Their lives are precious, but it’s ok to send their own kids to daycare and risk the daycare teachers’ or camp counselors’ lives? The reality is that daycare teachers aren’t any less at risk, they just don’t have the bargaining power that K-12 teachers do, and many of these kids who can’t go to school in the fall will also wind up in daycares. The K-12 teachers refusing to teach are just transferring risk off of themselves and onto other people who are just as vulnerable.
anon says
I’ve written to our governor several times to ask him to shut down non-essential social venues to limit community spread. Totally agree.
However, I also think there should be some give from teachers in figuring out how to safely interact with the most vulnerable students. This could be 1:1 outdoor meet ups. Small, distanced outdoor reading groups for K-3. In person interventions and therapy for SPED or ELL students, etc. I’m not asking for teachers to go back into full classrooms, but 100% DL doesn’t work for younger or many IEP students. There needs to be some give for low risk in person instruction. Schools also need to figure out how to distribute books and worksheets to students. Having kids only use screens this year because it’s lower risk doesn’t work.
Anonymous says
This. If the class has 20 kids then 10 attend in the morning and 10 in the afternoon. And they wear face shields or masks if necessary. The options are not open/close. We need to start from the premise that schools will be open and figure out what that will look like to be as safe as possible.
Spirograph says
I think one of the big problems is that people don’t have the leeway to make decisions (at least in my county) on a more local level. Our public school district is gigantic and hugely diverse. I have a fair degree of confidence that my kids’ elementary school administrators, teachers and the PTA could come up with a plan for some level of in person instruction that makes most people happy. We don’t need busses because everyone lives <1 mile away from the school building, we have outdoor space, some classrooms are already in trailers which helps with cohorting/distancing. We have a lot of engaged and well-off parents who would probably source or donate PPE. But unlike a private school, they can't solve at the individual school level. The district can't figure out an in person solution that works for everyone (which probably truly is impossible), so we get virtual learning for all.
anon says
We’re a relatively small and well resourced county and we can’t seem to solve this. The administration is entirely unable to cope with treating different grade levels differently. The administration is also completely unable to judge risk–i.e., the risk of kids getting no education vs. an armed shooter or West Nile outbreak if kids have even a 30 minute in person meeting with their teacher outdoors. And teachers aren’t helping, as they are convinced they will be forced into unsafe situations so they are unwilling to even have a conversation about potential options.
anon says
My friend is in Germany and they are having elementary students go in to meet with their teacher in a small group 1 time per week (either a morning or afternoon). The teacher uses that time to assess the students’ progress and to give them new materials.
Anon says
But we have to make choices based on the world we have, not the one we want. We tried to “fix the virus” in the spring. It didn’t work. Barring a major breakthrough with respect to the science, this virus is with us long term. We have to figure out how to live with it, and keeping elementary schools closed for years is not a viable choice.
Anonymous says
It’s not science that’s the problem, it’s people’s behavior. Fix the behavior. We should actually be keeping schools closed, or refusing to send our children, as a way of exerting leverage on those in power to impose necessary public health measures.
Anon says
Nobody can fix the behavior of 350 million people. The first lockdown had a much smaller impact on the virus than it should have, and a second would be way less effective (which is the reason you don’t see many public health and medical experts pushing for a second lockdown). If you want to keep your kids home, that’s your right. I accept that this is the world we live in, it’s not going to change any time soon, and young children need an in-person education. Tens of millions of essential workers are going to work every day indoors, and I don’t think public K-12 teachers have a better reason to stay home than daycare teachers, college professors and private school teachers. The only reason they get to “opt out” is because they’re unionized and their employer is a non-profit.
Anon says
I agree that the all-or-nothing approach is very frustrating. There are ways to have in-person contact that look very different from traditional schooling. My daycare is finally reopening next month, and this week they had a farewell meetup outside. All the adults and most of the kids wore masks, the adults kept their distance (but still enjoyed catching up) and the kids were OVERJOYED to run around a playground together. They could have been doing this all summer, even let parents drop their kids off for a couple hours, and it would have brought so much joy to the kids and a brief respite for parents at very little risk to the teachers. I’m sure there must be analogies that would work for public school, like having class outside or doing smaller group sizes or things like that to get kids some socialization and education, without all the risks of the traditional classroom environment. I think if you’re outside, masked up, and 6 feet apart, it’s incredibly difficult to transmit the virus.
Anon says
Outdoor classes: winter temps in the 30s in many parts of the country. Rain. No facilities (blackboards, smartboards, bathrooms)
Distancing: keeping kids 6 feet apart, not easy
IF it’s true that young kids are inefficient spreaders, I could see repurposing middle and high school space to give young kids space to spread out, while the older kids study at home.
Anon says
I mean, again, this is all-or-nothing thinking. So you can’t have school outside in February in the Midwest, but there are some months when the outdoors is an attractive option for at least part of the day. Having to cancel classes or shorten the school day regularly because of inclement weather is better than having no school at all (maybe not from a childcare perspective, but certainly from an educational one). I have seen a lot of preschool kids learn very effectively to keep their distance from peers. If 3 year olds can follow social distancing rules, 6 year olds can too. Physical space may be an issue, but then split the kids into two groups and alternate days or times of day. The point I and others are making is that none of these solutions are perfect but they are much better than just giving up on having school.
Anonymous says
https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2020/07/montgomery-co-private-school-moving-all-classes-outside-this-fall/
Obviously this is private, not public school, but the point is that you can solve those outdoor problems in a lot of places with resources and creativity. Outdoor classrooms won’t work in the winter in Fargo, ND, but in many parts of the country, they will.
Anonymous says
They had outdoor classes in NYC during the 1918 flu pandemic. We are literally doing a worse job at education than a hundred years ago. NY Times had pictures on the weekend.
anon says
This drives me nuts. We didn’t have COVID as an issue in the US 4.5 months ago and in our area we don’t have winter weather to worry about until after Thanksgiving, which is almost 4 months away. Why can’t we use outdoor spaces this fall and worry about the winter when it gets closer? This is the type of inflexible thinking that is hampering schools. Outdoor options may help us bridge the gap four young elementary students until we have a vaccine, which could come as early as December 2020.
Anon says
Denmark is doing outdoor schooling and average temps are colder there than in much of the US, at least in the fall and spring. I think a big problem is money. If we handed each school district millions of dollars they could probably find invest in more creative solutions like circus tents with heaters or plexiglass barriers around teachers like some colleges are doing. But we’re not giving them that increased funding. The university I work at has spent approximately $50 million implementing changes to make campus safer – obviously that’s for a much larger number of people, but still, there’s no way school districts can make all the necessary changes for free.
Anon says
I’m in the upper Midwest and it’s usually pretty comfortable to be outside through late November, even increasingly into December lately what with global warming and all (it was 65 on Christmas last year!). Why not start the school year outside and then go virtual for the last few weeks of the fall semester if necessary? I understand that outdoor schooling is not a feasible solution year-round, but it seems like school in the fall and late spring would be better much better than no school.
Anon says
@anon at 1:35, honestly if I thought things would be much better next spring or even next fall I wouldn’t be so worried. What really scares me is there’s a pretty decent chance things won’t improve much for multiple years and the negative effects of the closures will be so much more devastating the longer this goes on. My best friend is a doctor who’s supposed to have twins start K in fall 2022 and she told me if she were placing bets, she would put money on them having virtual K. Losing a year of school is terrible – for some kids more than others of course – but it’s the kind of thing we can recover from when things get back to normal. Losing 3+ years, I’m not so sure.
Anon says
Oh, please tell us how teachers should act. Yes, yes, you make more money and care less about people and not nearly as capable at handling children (but you had them anyway) so you are a much better person than them.
If people are going to BBQs where you live the problem is your local government and your neighbors. That some of your neighbors are teachers is secondary.
Anon says
I’m generally OK with how my district is handling this so far, but as a national debate, it frustrates me to no end. School is an essential service, in the medium- to long-term we’re looking at here, no less so then most health care and production lines, and teachers are no more vulnerable then those workers. My kids are fine – they have plenty of resources. Many, many kids don’t have a stable household, capable and supportive family, or just generally the resources to make this work. Long-term remote learning means kids like mine (who already have so many advantages) can just keep getting ahead, and the less advantaged fall further behind. Sure, most of the families who post here can hire a tutor or something, but that’s not the norm.
People who care about equality and fairness should be outraged.
Anonymous says
It’s a huge problem that we deliver social support services to kids almost exclusively through schools. Those services need to be decoupled from schools so they can continue in public health and weather emergencies, and so schools can focus on education, including differentiating instruction. Public schools are so focused on providing services to kids in need that they don’t care about any kid who doesn’t have an IEP or isn’t on free lunch. How about we make sure everyone has food and health insurance and social supports outside the school system, and provide all the kids with an appropriate education?
anon says
Totally agree. Our public schools declined to teach at all last spring because they said they were too busy sorting out how to get food to kids. That’s crazy to me. I 100% understand the need for food, but they also need an education. The county/city should be responsible for food. The schools should be providing education.
Anon 9:54 says
I’m not talking about social services here; I’m talking about education. My kids (like most of the kids of women on this site) have the resources to learn without school. Many kids don’t.
Those kids aren’t going to just catch up. Many people seem to think they don’t matter in this debate. It’s outrageous.
Anonymous says
This argument is disingenuous. Let’s put all the poor kids into classrooms because they and their parents are too stupid to handle at-home learning. Nope. Come up with some solutions to reach them where they are and keep them safe.
anon says
It is very possible to have smaller group meetings safely in person (with social distancing) even when it’s not possible to have a whole class be back in school.
Anon FCPS says
Yep. Although I think in the spring distributing food vs figuring out DL was the best worst option they had. Particularly since no one really accepted that we’d be in the same situation 4-5 months later.
See also the “Defund Police” campaign, which isn’t about disbanding the police, but having specialized agencies/resources for non-law enforcement needs.
COVID was what had finally destroyed the fragile balance we have in keeping things running in the US.
Anonymous says
OP, you are saying you want to open schools but keep working from home?
Anonymous says
Not OP but ABSOLUTELY! This is the correct path from a public health perspective and what has been done in countries that are successfully managing covid spread. Implying that teachers do not go back until everyone is back at the office is completely wrong from public health perspective and not what is being done anywhere in the world.
The science based public health approach is to keep anyone who can work at home, working at home to minimize the risk of transmission by having few people circulate. Elementary schools open to provide needed socialization and learning for children as well as vital social programs like free lunches and support for learning disabilities. Evidence is strong that young children have a low risk of transmission. In person schooling for grade 7-12 when numbers are low and online when numbers increase.
Anon says
Yup. This is the model many countries used with great success. Iceland actually kept K-5 schools open during their (very successful) full lockdown, because they were deemed so essential.
anne-on says
Yes! Those who can work at home should – it takes away the exposure from office—>parent—>school and makes the child/school the main potential point of exposure. It would be much safer that way, and most parents I know are VERY willing to go back to partial closures if it means schools are open so they can actually get a solid 5-6 hours of work done during that time.
anon says
Given how community spread works, people who can effectively work from home should continue doing so. This doesn’t mean that families aren’t exposed as well–they will have their students’ exposure.
Keeping parents working from home actually makes the classroom safer for teachers because it’s less likely that an outbreak from a workplace could find its way into a classroom.
Anon says
Anyone who can work at home should. It’s the best thing for the community at large and protects the essential workers almost as much as it protects the people who get to stay home. I believe we should have grocery stores, medical offices/hospitals, daycares and elementary schools open and not much else. If every state did that, infection rates would drop hugely and schools would be very safe, especially with added precautions like masks and distancing.
Anon says
+1 million. Close everything other than schools and other truly essential things like medical stuff and grocery stores. My view is that literally nothing other than medical and truly essential goods stores (like grocery stores and pharmacies) should be open if schools can’t be.
OP Anon says
Absolutely. But in all reality my office will reopen before her school does so I don’t get to make that choice. Again the risk of young children transmitting this virus in so much lower than adults. So I feel much safer with her interacting with her peers (or heck, me if I were a teacher interacting with her peers) than I do interacting with a bunch of even masked adults. I also think from a societal perspective it makes so much more flipping sense to put the young kids at school and keep those who can telework doing so because again, the risk of young kids transmitting vs. adults transmitting is so different.
Anon FCPS says
Fairfax county? There are several FB groups that are parents getting together organizing pods.
I’m so furious with every.single.govenerment.agency as to how this was handled. This didn’t have to be this way. Complete lack of federal leadership, exacerbated by dithering on state and local levels led to this. The school system was put in a horrible bind, but I wish they accepted that a month ago, since it was clear nothing was happening to make it better, and focused on differentiating based on age and need, and told the parents who were worried about lacrosse, property taxes, and Great School ratings to jump in a lake.
Yes, I have feelings.
anon says
I’m a neighbor to Fairfax county. I feel like we’ve gotten much of the worst of it. We had all of the restrictions of the north east in the spring with a late reopening, but we are now getting caught in the outbreak in the south.
Anon says
That’s sort of the whole country, I think. I’m in the Midwest and we “reopened” (stuff like bars and restaurants) fairly early, but daycares and summer camps mostly stayed shut through the summer, even though our state had a very small peak in April and virtually no cases in May/June. Now cases are surging here, we’ve far surpassed our April peak. I think something like 40 out of 50 US states are currently seeing steep increases in case numbers and most of the county outside of the northeast didn’t have much of an outbreak in the spring.
anon says
We didn’t “reopen” most places until almost July, including playgrounds, but we’re now getting lumped in with the southern states even though we only have a small uptick in cases locally.
Yet Another Fairfax County Poster says
Would you be willing to share the name of the groups? I am new to the county and trying to figure out my options at this point
Anon FCPS says
Sure — three FB groups that are useful/not just ridiculous complaints about teachers and taxes are:
nova k-12 academic marketplace
FCPS 2020-2021
fairfax county pandemic pods and microschools
There is also a website with a survey that is meant to connect families who want to form “pods” I’m looking for it and will post if I can find it.
Anonymous says
Thank you!
Anonymous says
If you have a neighborhood listserv or similar that might also be a good place to start. I know mine is blowing up with pandemic pod coordination these days!
anon says
Our nearby district (in MD) is fully virtual and well I don’t think it’s going to work great for my rising K, but also I think schools not opening here is 100% the correct decision from a covid standpoint. It just sucks that it’s going to be a pointless/exhausting year.
avocado says
Here is a really interesting conversation with teachers that touches on many of the issues mentioned here, including equity:
https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/07/reopening-schools-teachers-coronavirus-risks.html?via=article-inline_recirc-section-human-interest
Realist says
Yes, this was so good.
Anonymous says
In theory I like the idea of closing other things to allow schools to open more safely, but then teachers would just complain about how it’s unfair to make them be guinea pigs. There were some schools in my area that opened for limited summer school for kids who were behind academically to begin with, and the teachers were very publicly outraged that they had to go back to work while the state government kept many other sectors of the economy closed. This was in early June, when infection rates in my state were at their lowest point ever and among the lowest anywhere in the US. My impression of teachers is not helped by the fact that the teacher on my social media newsfeed who is the loudest about schools being unsafe flew to a bachelor3tte party in Miami a couple weeks ago. I wish I were kidding. I’m sure there are teachers out there who are behaving responsibly and genuinely want to return to school when infection rates are lower and they have appropriate PPE, but I think the sad reality is that a lot of teachers are perfectly content getting paid to work part-time from home while doing things in their personal lives that are less safe than teaching young kids in masks from a distance.
Realist says
I tend to be pretty cynical about people, but I don’t think most teachers are taking risks in their personal lives while trying to shirk off teaching. Of course, some of them are. But I think the majority claiming concerns with school reopenings are legitimately concerned for themselves or their family members. In my area, the majority of teachers are over age 50 and they are legitimately concerned, even though we are not a hotspot. They have choices in front of them that probably don’t feel any better than the awful choices facing my family.
Pogo says
This shirt hurts my eyes. Sorry April.
Anon says
agreed! it is giving me a headache
Anon says
Agreed.
anne-on says
On Abra’s recommendation I bought this shirt at the start of May in another pattern and now have every color/pattern they make. Lightweight, washable, and looks good on Zoom. Size down, and it does hit at high hip, but otherwise this is my perfect ‘zoom shirt’:
https://factory.jcrew.com/p/womens-clothing/shirts_tops/shortsleeveshirts/squareneck-buttonfront-top-in-stretch-cotton-poplin/AP100?color_name=bright-begonia
Anonymous says
I love the vibrant colors.
Mm says
Man, I just lost it this morning at daycare drop-off of my 6 month old. We’ve been doing this for a month now, but it’s still so hard. Please remind me that this is best for the long term of my career and sanity.
Anon says
It is! It’s also really good for her to be around other kids, especially when she gets a bit older. The first month of lockdown my 2 year old cried every day because she wanted to go to school. It was a horrible feeling at the time, but also really heartening to know how much she loves school.
Anonymous says
In non-pandemic times, day care is such a wonderful thing for parents and children. It’s just really hard right now for everyone no matter what child care arrangement you choose.
Preggo says
Can anyone recommend wall decals for a nursery? There seem to be a lot of option out there, and I’m looking for a brand that would truly be removable with little damage to the wall but also holds up well.
ifiknew says
Mej Mej – we have them in both of our kids rooms. they are gorgeous
Anonanonanon says
I normally think wall decals are tacky (sorry, everyone) but I browsed through these because I’m on a boring call and some of these are beautiful!
Anon says
We used Decowall decals in our last rental. We only had them up for 2 years, so I don’t know if they stay looking nice beyond that, but had no problem easily pulling them off when we moved out.
TheElms says
UrbanWalls has really good decals that are truly removable.
Anon says
water bottles for a 2 year old? i got contigo per rec from this site, but have been having a lot of issues with them (and their customer service). any other recs?
Anonymous says
Nalgene grip and go
Anon says
+1 for Grip n Gulp. My kids destroy silicone straws, so things like Camelbacks are out, though many people I know love those.
Anon says
I like the pottery barn kids ones.
CCLA says
Thermos foogo! No small pieces to come off and be choking hazards. My almost 2yo can open and close it on her own. We’ve had several and they’ve held up for years with our older kid.
anon says
My son’s daycare used Nalgene water bottles, and they’re indestructible and easy to wash.
anon says
I like polar ice. Keeps water somewhat cool (esp if it isn’t 100 out), durable, easy to clean.
Anon says
Probably a silly question, but give me permission to white lie to my 2.5 year old? I signed her up for outdoor soccer while daycare was closed thinking it would be relatively safe, but it’s been much worse than I imagined in terms of covid – literally no one wears masks, the coach puts her face super close to the kids, and the field is tiny so there’s a lot of unnecessary crowding of kids (and their parents, since they’re only 2 they can’t really “play” without parental involvement). Daycare is finally supposed to reopen next month (hallelujah and fingers crossed) and I want to stop going to soccer two weeks before school starts, because I don’t want her to be patient zero at school for such an unnecessary reason. I can just tell her next week that soccer is ending, right? She doesn’t know it was supposed to last 10 weeks instead of 6. I feel guilty lying but I feel like having a big discussion about the risks would be more upsetting (and confusing, because we’ve been going despite the risks while school was closed). She knows we wear masks in certain places, but we haven’t had a lot of discussion about why and I don’t want to scare her.
Anonymous says
All you need to tell her is that soccer is over. You don’t need to tell her that you are the one who decided it was done. She’s 2.5.
Anonymous says
You definitely don’t need to worry about this. She barely has a concept of weeks at that age let alone whether she has gone to soccer 5, 6, 8 or 10 times.
Anon says
Thanks, that was my instinct, just wanted a gut check.
Pogo says
I lie about COVID-related stuff to my kid on a daily basis. Don’t we all?
Anon says
Yep. Lie with impunity.
Or, alternatively, it’s not a lie, soccer is ending (for you) because it’s not a risk you can assume.
Anonanonanon says
Yep. It’s not a lie. Soccer is over (for her).
IHeartBacon says
Your parenthetical made me laugh out loud. It sounded like Dr. Evil in my head.. :)
Anne says
Of course you can lie. We’ve told our kids that kids are not allowed in CVS. No guilt.
Anon says
for all those venting about schools…please go read ask a manager to understand why they can’t get anything done!
Anonymous says
omg
anon says
I was floored by that letter. Holy hell.
Anonymous says
Will you link to it? I couldn’t find it.
anon says
It’s the 3 hr zoom meeting letter
Anon says
This isn’t parenting related but gah I am so so so sick of people (read: men) who know nothing about my job telling me how to do it. If we weren’t in the middle of this crisis, I would quit in a heartbeat.
Anon says
Thinking about spending 4 months somewhere warm this winter. Florida probably the best option? Any places you recommend where we could rent two condos? We will need my parents with us for childcare.
Anon says
I follow a bl*gger who has a family condo in Fort Walton Beach – it looks beautiful and there are lots of condos to rent in the area. We are tentatively planning a very socially distanced vacation there this winter (condo or house rental, takeout food only, walking on the beach, etc.). That said, northern Florida isn’t that warm in the winter. You have to go pretty far south, like Miami area, if you really want to swim in the ocean.
For Au Pair Travel says
For the au pair travel question yesterday, you can buy a test kit online from Everlywell (not affiliated, just recently heard about it from another mom group). It won’t, practically speaking, be much faster than a quarantine but it could give some peace of mind and a couple earlier days’ return to child care.