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Paging Anon with 5th Grade Reader says
I didn’t get to comment yesterday, and you got some fantastic suggestions. My niece is in 5th grade and +1 to the Aru Shah and Mysterious Benedict Society. She also has enjoyed the Willow Falls series by Wendy Mass (11 Birthdays, Finally, 13 Gifts…). The Penderwick Sisters series may be a bit too literary fiction/family focused, but could be worth a try.
Anon says
You got some great recs yesterday! And you sound like the best aunt! I loved to read as a kid and nothing made me happier than getting a pile of books. My third grader also has the app Epic which allows him to read online. Going to the library with your niece might also be fun.
Anon says
Penderwicks is a good suggestion–my 7yos who aren’t usually into literary fiction are enjoying reading those.
Anonymous says
With illness, when should I take my kid to the pediatrician? We’ve been lucky that our 4-yo is hardly ever sick. He had a fever on Sunday and wanted to rest, then he was fine Monday, but Tuesday was sent home from preschool with a fever and some coughing. This morning he has a slight fever and he still seems very tired, with a runny nose. His temperature hasn’t gotten above 101 as far as I can tell, and it’s come down with Motrin.
Anonymous says
I only take them when I suspect it’s something that can be treated with prescription medication (bacterial infection, flu, vomiting, etc.). I don’t like to take the risk of picking up another bug in the pediatrician’s office.
Anon says
That sounds like a virus, and I’d give it a couple more days of rest before you go to the ped. We don’t go to the ped unless we think we need antibiotics, mainly for ear infections when my kid was a toddler and strep now that she’s school aged.
Lily says
I think this is just a comfort level thing. In your shoes, I would have taken him to the pediatrician (if I could get a same-day appointment) or urgent care last night. But I really like to nip things in the bud and half the time (at least with my kids) it’s something that needs to be treated like an ear infection or strep. I know some people are way less quick to take their kids to the doctor and I think most of the time kids do just get over whatever it is. My oldest gets viral-induced asthma so I’m extra likely to take her in for them to check her breathing if she has a cold.
Anon says
For fever, rule of thumb is fever for 5+ days, a super high fever (over 104/105), or a fever that doesn’t respond to medication. The exception is if there are other concerning symptoms that could point to needing and antibiotic, like a very sore red throat (strep), a rash (scarlet fever), a very wet cough and trouble breathing (pneumonia), etc.
My kids have had “run of the mill” viruses that last up to a week and the doctor can’t do anything about them, just give lots of fluid and rest
NYCer says
+1. OP – FWIW, I would not have taken my kid to the ped with the symptoms and timing that you’ve described.
GCA says
Whenever I weigh the pros and cons of a visit to the ped, I consider things like:
– are the symptoms severe or long-lasting (eg, has this fever lasted for a week without seeming to get better, or is it very high)
– is my kid experiencing a lot of discomfort/ discomfort in unusual places (eg, could it be a UTI or strep)
– what advice is the ped realistically going to give me about addressing these symptoms, that will not be treated by rest, liquids and OTC meds (again, maybe it’s strep or a UTI that might need antibiotics)
– are there underlying health conditions (heart condition etc) that might make an otherwise mild illness more risky for this particular kid
Four days isn’t too out of the ordinary; I think in your shoes I’d give it a day, give him plenty of time to rest, and reassess tomorrow.
anon says
+1. Also, is it so early in the illness that the dr. is unlikely to prescribe for a few days? I get annoyed going more than once for the same illness. Friends who go to urgent care/ped at the first sign of illness tend to be at the dr all the time, because they’ll end up returning several times during the same illness and their kids end up on antibiotics way, way more.
Another consideration – is kiddo so uncomfortable they aren’t able to get rest? That’s when I usually take them in early on.
I also avoid taking kiddo in if I know exactly what it is and that the dr can’t do anything. Ex- after the first kiddo got Hand Foot Mouth, I would never go in again because I am now very confident I know what it looks like, and it isn’t worth exposing other kids at the office since the dr can’t give them anything for it. Again, a comfort level thing because some of my friends would take their kids for that.
Allergic reactions- I would now take kiddo immediately. A friend had a scary experience with their LO so now that’s on my immediate-attention list.
Anonymous says
I would give it a couple more days as long as he is drinking well and resting. I would do the doctor soon if he’s having really bad ear pain or a throat that is so sore that he won’t drink or a high fever like 104 or 105 that doesn’t come down.
Straw sippy cups were the only way to get my kids to drink anything when they were sick.
Anonymous says
This is going around our neighborhood as well. I took my 3 year old in, but mostly because he has asthma and every virus turns into bronchitis for him. The doc said it’s a virus, his lungs sound fine, keep him hydrated and let him rest. I think it’s fine to take him for the peace of mind but also not necessary.
Anon says
My 6 year old had something similar recently too. She also vomited a couple of times although it didn’t seem like a gastroenteritis (with those she vomits a lot and then it’s over – this was on-and-off low grade fever and very occasional vomiting for 4 or 5 days).
FVNC says
We tend to err on the side of going in, but our kids get strep constantly so whenever we hear “sore throat” we go in. This week, our 7 yr came down with a bug that sounds very similar to your child — low-grade fever, runny nose, sore throat, cough…we took him in, and it’s the flu. We didn’t start him on any meds other than motrin/tylenol because he’s overall feeling ok. But just FYI, since it was news to me that there’s still flu going around…Hope your little guy feels better soon.
Mary Moo Cow says
Does your ped have a nurse line? Our office has an option to call and leave a message with a nurse or the provider on call describing the symptoms and they’ll call you back to discuss. Bonus is that if they want to see Kiddo, they fast track a sick appointment. I like to do this because I get peace of mind without having to go in.
octagon says
+1 to the nurse line. I think I call it at least once a month. They’re very patient with parents who need a gut check or just to be told it’s okay to still be pushing rest and fluids.
anon says
+1 talk with the nurse if you have any concerns and for advice on making kiddo more comfortable. also, if you can get guidelines for when the ped wants to see your kid, that’ll help in the future. The AAP book is helpful for understanding when to be worried and how to help a child even if there’s no Rx that will help.
I typically don’t bring my child to the pediatrician unless I think there’s something they can do (ie, it’s a bacterial infection) or I’m really worried. But, my sense of what to be worried about has been honed by years of calls to the nurse line, plenty of visits to the pediatrician and urgent care, and the AAP book.
Anon says
My nine year old had a low grade fever for a week, cough and headache off and on. Main problem consistently was fatigue. Negative for Covid, strep and flu but a week later tests indicated he had pneumonia. So please keep an eye on him! Hope it isn’t anything serious.
Anonymous says
Call your pedi’s office and talk to a nurse. Best of both worlds. Nurse will probably say Motrin and rest and come in if it’s uncontrolled, but you will feel better!
Anon says
I’m 9 1/2 weeks pregnant and we just secured an infant daycare slot in the Bay Area. I’ve gone through two losses before and it’s such an odd feeling to be planning for daycare when I’m not even sure this pregnancy is going to last. I guess when it came down to it, fear of not getting a slot won out!
SC says
Congratulations on your pregnancy and day care slot! Best wishes for you!
Anon says
Congratulations! And way to be on-top of planning for daycare!
My heart goes out to you, pregnancy after loss is really hard. It’s difficult to toe the line between trying to protect your emotions but also try to find joy and hope for the future. Just a friendly reminder from an internet stranger, all emotions (happy or sad) are totally valid.
Anon says
Another (<5yo) kid threw a bucket of toys at daycare and hit my almost 3 yo DS in the face. She was not the primary target, just collateral damage I guess, but she's got a cut on her cheek, right next to her eye and has some bruising and a little bit of a black eye. The daycare told us the other kid was being suspended for three days and would have two weeks to find another daycare. Does that seem reasonable? I'm glad this kid won't be there long term, but also feel like maybe they're just telling me this to make me feel better, and don't plan to follow through on it since it seems so strict, and I haven't always been super impressed with them. But maybe this is the standard thing to do? It took them four hours to call me to tell me about the incident in the first place. I guess I don't know what is the normal thing to do or expect in this situation.
Anonymous says
I do t think the injury is necessarily the issue. I’d want to understand what they did to prevent it. Was it truly a split second thing or were things escalating and they ignored it? Are rough 5 y/os generally well supervised alongside young 3 y/os?
Our daycare called us every time there was any kind of injury to the head “just to be safe, it’s protocol”- like a scratch or whatever.
Also, when we kid preschool aged kids they were all out in the outdoor space together so a 5 y/o might accidentally whack a 3 y/o with a shovel but 100% of the time there was a teacher with every group of kids so it very rarely did. The teachers were playing in the sand with the kids, not on the outskirts.
Spirograph says
+1 Our daycare and also elementary/aftercare have a requirement for prompt notification of a head injury, so I’m surprised it took 4 hours for them to inform you! I used to get pretty regular calls that preschool son was running and bumped into a wall.
I also would be very curious what kind of supervision was happening at the time of this incident. IME, kids rarely just pick up a buck of toys and chuck it at someone. There were probably some raised voices between the aggressor and the “primary” target” and some other tells that this was about to go down. Where were the teachers during that, and why didn’t they intervene to de-escalate?
There must be more history with this child to be suspended & expelled for throwing a bucket of toys. I find that surprisingly harsh for a first offense, even if some injuries resulted.
Anon says
assuming you otherwise like the daycare, i don’t know that i would necessarily doubt their supervision. sometimes they could be busy with other kids and things can happen suddenly. these kids aren’t infants, it is impossible to watch them every single second
Spirograph says
Oh I totally agree! I would ask the question knowing there are lots of responses that would make me say “OK, makes sense” and move on. But that’s also why I think it’s a surprisingly harsh punishment for the aggressor. That <5 year old made a poor choice/acted on a bad impulse, sure, but that's not uncommon for kids that age. That's why groups of pre-Kers need fairly close adult supervision. And if there were a breakdown in that supervision, it seems unfair to me to kick the kid out… unless this is just the latest in a pattern of similar behavior. Though, if it's part of a pattern *and* the teachers weren't supervising closely, I'd have to think about that, too.
Anon says
Yeah, some of my concern is: is this just the latest in a long line of incidents that they haven’t told us about until forced to. But DS seems fairly unfazed and if she seems fine at dropoff tomorrow I will assume she’s not upset about it.
Anon says
For those who are comfortable taking your kids to trampoline parks, would you also be ok with them doing a summer camp at a trampoline park? Trampoline parks were one of those “I would never!” things for me before I became a parent, but my kids have gone a bunch for birthday parties and play dates and I haven’t been too horrified. At least for my cautious kids, it seems to be as much or more about playing in the ball pit and tossing foam blocks as jumping on the trampolines. But I feel like camp may be a different story in terms of safety because I won’t be there and maybe they will be pushing the kids to try harder tricks. Our local place is Get Air, on the off chance anyone has specific experience with that chain.
Anon says
i would not and not only for safety reasons, but i feel like a lot of those kinds of camps aren’t well run
Anon says
I figured that, but we’d be using it as emergency childcare basically, so I’m not really concerned with how well it’s run. It’s kind of a long story, but we ended up with a handful of days this summer where we unexpectedly need afternoon childcare. There are no other half day afternoon camps in our area, and the full day camps sold out long ago. They also let you enroll for each day separately, so we wouldn’t be wasting money paying for a bunch of days we don’t need. So it meets a need and I’m willing to have the kids be a bit bored for a couple days for the sake of convenience. But of course the safety is still a big concern.
Anon says
With this context – I’d be okay using it sparingly, but honestly, would still probably just look for a high school or college sitter for those afternoons.
My kids love these places, and I’m fine with them going. My concern with the idea of a camp is that the novelty of just jumping will wear off pretty quickly if you go a few days in a row, and the kids will start experimenting with moves/jumps/games. I’d be worried about injury from losing the sense of caution and self-protection that is derived from infrequent visits to these places.
Anonymous says
Couple afternoons a week is different than M-F, 9-5.
Look around a bit though – I’ve been surprised at the new options post Covid even after booking camps for the last 7 years.
Anonymous says
No, and only my kid do trampoline parks. Those camps are not well supervised and the kids will be there all day every day upping the chances for injury.
Anonymous says
My kids love Get Air, and I don’t worry about them going with us, and wouldn’t worry about them going with a camp. Our location feels very germy to me, which I stress about more than the equipment. But, I’m also a fairly laid-back parent who thinks broken arms are just part of childhood sometimes, so YMMV.
Anonymous says
To add– Get Air is in the middle of the wildness spectrum around here, with the injury potential IMO running from Pump It Up (mostly bounce houses) >> Get Air >> Sky Zone (fracture city).
Anonymous says
We have a local Get Air and I’ve hosted a birthday party there a couple times. I was also like ‘no trampolines’ and have stuck with no trampolines in the backyard. Trampolining every day at summer camp seems like a much higher risk level than 2 hrs every couple months.
I would not do summer camp at our local Get Airbecause a kid broke his arm and they brushed it off/didn’t call the mom. I feel like the teenagers who are motivated to work at a trampoline park for summer camp compared to like a skill specific summer camp or city/university based summer camp are not necessarily going to be the most responsible supervisors and that these parks have a direct financial interest in downplaying injuries.
Spirograph says
How old are your kids? Mine are 7-11 and all of them are athletic and assertive enough that I think they could hang safely with limited supervision. My youngest is a bit of a ninja-daredevil, and he’s the one I would worry most about, because he isn’t as risk-averse as the other two, and would try to push the envelope physically. Still, I would be OK with any of them doing a summer camp at a trampoline park if they asked for it, but I’d never seek it out for them.
Anonymous says
We’re a no trampoline family (as in we refuse birthday invites). But our gymnastics place, which is very safe for classes, turns WILD and very Lord of the Flies for camps. So I’d assume the trampoline place would be similar. Do your kids have any friends with SAHMs? If it’s just like 3 afternoons they prob won’t mind. Speaking as a stay at home mom! Taking on a few extra kids in the summer for a few days isn’t a big deal to me.
Anonymous says
I don’t send my kids to “camps” at recreation places that are not set up to be legit day camps for this reason.
Fallen says
Has anyone been to the Catskills or the Berkshires with kids (6 and 11 when we go)/would you recommend? Or any other driving vacations from Fairfield county in the Summer?
Anon says
It would be further than the Catskills/Berkshires, but still driveable (depending on your tolerance for long drives).. Maine? We love the Maine coast, especially the Bar Harbor/Acadia area which is great for kids. It would be about an 8 hour drive for you. If that’s too far, southern Maine is nice too.
NYCer says
I was also going to suggest Maine. We love Kennebunkport.
Anonymous says
I grew up in Fairfield county. We went to the jersey shore, the Catskills and cape cod for our week-long vacations. Other ideas: Canada/niagra, Hershey, block island, montauk.
Former Junior Associate says
Pure curiosity from someone who grew up in Central Pennsylvania: What does a week long Hershey vacation look like? My impression has always been that it’s basically the amusement park that’s a draw, but that doesn’t seem like a week-long vacation destination to me. I like Central PA a lot but my perspective is very much live-there rather than visit-there.
Anonymous says
No, not a week, 2-3 days max and that would include time in like, Amish county. You’d add a few days somewhere else too. But my 11 y/o would happily spend a couple days at the theme park.
Anonymous says
We have a place in the Catskills and it’s great for kids, especially if they love the outdoors and hiking. You can also venture into the Catskills for recreation while making your base somewhere along the Hudson, like Kingston. Our top things to do: hiking, swimming in the lakes/ rivers, and checking out the food scene (Alison Roman just opened a store, etc). You can also do farm tours or learn fly fishing. It’s easy to find cute inns and breweries, many of them started by former Brooklynites.
The main thing I’d consider in the Catskills is how remote you’d like to be. The counties closer to the city have a lot more going on, and parts of Saugerties, for example, feel almost suburban to me, as compared to our closest village. But that also means there are more grocery stores, restaurants, etc. Also make sure you understand the geography: the mountains mean that the distances can be deceptive.
I love the Berkshires, too. It’s much more quaint and New England-y. I think of it as better for retirees.
Anon says
Kiddo just turned 2, and he’s throwing more tantrums and hitting me (mom). I tell him to stop: “No thank you”, “Stop hitting”, “That hurts me”, “I don’t want to play like that”. But lately he doesn’t stop, he goes after me more.
I walk away and disengage when I can. But sometimes it’s not safe to let go of him. And other times, if I walk away he gets what he wanted.
Any advice?
Anon says
What consequences are you using for the hitting?
Anon says
Nothing except walking away or removing a toy if he’s hitting with it. He can’t really follow instructions for a timeout. Any suggestions?
Anon says
I would consider carrying him to his crib or another safe spot (Pack and Play) for a very short timeout/cooloff.
Anonymous says
Unfortunately we don’t have anywhere safe anymore. He rams walls and doors; he climbs and jumps off furniture. No crib anymore because it became a hazard.
Anonymous says
Have you looked at other crib options? My kids were 90th percentile and we were able to use cribs from Toys R Us until they were 4. We did have to drop the mattress to the floor at age 2.5 to prevent climbing.
Anonymous says
Consistent calm reaction of firm ‘no hitting’ and redirect his attention. If it continues ‘no hitting’ and pick him up with him facing away from you, one arm under his bottom and other arm over his arms and move him to where you need him to be. If he’s like 2.5/3 I think you can also do short time outs. Like carry him upstairs to his crib for a 2 min time out. ‘If you can’t play nicely, you have to take a break from playing’ and then ‘ready to try again’?
Calm consistent responses help them understand boundaries. They will test boundaries at lot at that age as they are trying to understand the behavior ‘rules’.
Anon says
Thanks. That hold you described works pretty well, and I could definitely use it more often and more consistently. He’s at an in between age where we don’t have many options for physical control (no crib anymore, sadly).
Anonymous says
Maybe a storkke Tripp trapp as the time out location?
Anonymous says
Ideas:
1) Playfully stop him and say “Hands are not for hitting! Want to have a tickle contest?”
2) If he continues/escalates, physically stop him, using the minimal amount of force required. Repeat “Hands are not for hitting.”
3) If he tantrums/continues put him in a safe space (for us it’s a crib). “Hands are not for hitting; you can calm down here.” Whether or not I stay in the room depends on the kid. One of mine needs alone time to calm down, but he knows I’m nearby.
3) Get Dad involved, if possible. “I won’t let you hit Mom.” Have him physically remove kiddo from you, gently of course. Repeat, ad nauseum.
If possible, try to notice what’s triggering the hitting and intervene before he hits you. Is he hungry? Restless? Overstimulated? Tired? Frustrated that he can’t talk yet? (this was a big one for us: the hitting/biting stopped as soon as they could communicate).
Anon says
I think the major trigger is boredom. Daycare never complains and when we go out for activities he’s well behaved. But getting dinner on the table or bedtime after I stop telling stories, that’s when he acts out.
Anonymous says
Kids need to learn to deal with boredom. Maybe try a back carry in a toddler Tula while dinner prepping? And I would cut bedtime stories if it results in hitting. Or firm hold the line at one book. He’ll tantrum badly at first for more but you need to hold the line on reasonable boundaries. Otherwise you are just teaching him to act out.
Anon says
The phrase “no thank you” when you mean stop is my mom pet peeve. Why are you thanking your kid when he’s hitting you? It’s a confusing message when you need to be firm. You can also try to reframe it as what he should do – “gentle hands” etc. Or just validate what you are seeing, “you are so mad right now that you can’t have a snack. I won’t let you hit me.”
At 2, I would actually grab my child’s arms and wrap them in a bear hug. This prevented them from being able to hit and also helped them regulate. He’s probably rarely doing this on purpose – he’s overwhelmed and has no impulse control. You could also carry him to his room or another contained area to settle down if it seems like he’s a kid who needs some alone time to calm down.
Anon says
Omg YES. It’s really ok to tell a 2 year old who is hitting you to stop it. It’s not going to give them lifelong trauma.
Anon says
yes this is what we did. though i will say we were pretty lucky in that we didn’t have much hitting at 2, and somehow at age 5 we had more
Anon says
I use No Thank You because it’s what daycare uses, and therefore it works better than any other phrase.
Anonymous says
Yeah, I hated that day care taught them to say “no thank you” instead of “NO” or “STOP.”
Anon says
Agreed! The “thank you” makes no sense. It always rubs me the wrong way when people do this. Just say “no” or “keep your hands to yourself.”
anon says
In case you want it/need it, I’m giving you permission to raise your voice. I’m not saying scream and yell on end, but raising your voice is not uncalled for. After internalizing all the gentile parenting / Big Little Feelings-esque approaches, this is what worked for my “highly spirited” 2 year old. She’s now a delightful almost 6 year old and we rarely yell. Though, when we do, she knows we mean business.
Anon says
Same, and we even did timeouts too. Quelle horreur!
Anonymous says
I was never able to make timeouts work logistically. How do you get a kid who’s already misbehaving and probably having a tantrum because you tried to discipline them to go sit in the timeout spot and stay there? If you lock them in a room, won’t they destroy it?
Anon says
Yes! That’s exactly where I’m at. Or he injured himself.
Anon says
At that age it was more of a timeout from whatever fun thing we were doing rather than “stay in this specific spot.”
Anon says
Many of us with spicy kids have faced this issue. The standard “go sit there til I say come out” approach seems to work better with naturally compliant/less aggressive kids. Otherwise, you’ve just started a power struggle, and that is why we don’t do them. I will move them to their rooms for safety, but then I have to sit with them to prevent physical destruction or self-harm.
I think you can tell when your kids is acting out on purpose or because they are literally out of their right mind and can’t get control of themselves. Standard “punishments” may work in the first case, but the second case is different, hence the rise of gentle parenting and a toolbox of different options. (Super frustrating, though! All of my kids are very spicy. The oldest is finally outgrowing it and I can send him to his room to cool off.)
Anon says
Hmm. If that’s a timeout, I do use them, and they are very effective. It’s just harder when there isn’t anything immediate to withhold.
NLD in NYC says
+2. Also to Anon @ 11:56 AM comment about no “no thank you.”
Anon says
I do sometimes raise my voice. Unfortunately it eggs him in. I think partly because he’s satisfied to get a reaction, and partly because it adds more energy. I have no philosophical objection, but I don’t like the results!
Anon says
I could have written this myself, my daughter just turned 2 and she has been hitting me more. I calmly tell her “no, hands are not for hitting” “stop” “that hurts mommy” etc… I have put her in timeout for 1-2 minutes to help her calm down if her behavior escalates. With kids this little I think repetition and consistency is key. She might not get it the first time, haha but maybe by the 20th time she will get it. Best of luck!
Anon says
Good luck to you to! It is almost certainly a temporary problem but it sure feels hard!
Anon says
RIE has some different scripts for this. IIRC the message more “I won’t let you hit me” (with follow through). It might be helpful to read and assess that take even if you’re not generally RIE. I think the idea is that if we are very emotionally dysregulated, it’s actually comforting for someone else to take the reins even if we’re resisting it (basically, the meltdown and the violence is scary for the person who is doing the hitting as well).
Anon says
I’ve never heard of RIE, but I’ll look into it. Your summary sounds exactly like what we’re stuck in.
Anon says
Janet Lansbury and Magda Gerber are the big names associated with it
Anonymous says
+1, this approach resonates with me the most as well (for a 2yo – still so little!)
anon says
I have locked myself in a different room when my 3.5yo hits or kicks me and won’t stop. Usually dad intervenes at that point. Same thing if he’s after his dad. Other parent tags in and de-escalates. When I solo parent, which is relatively frequent, I still remove one of us from the situation till kid calms down.
Regular tantrums, I will sit on the floor and let him come to me when he’s ready.
Anon says
I hadn’t thought of tag teaming. DH and I usually stay out of it and let the first parent follow through whatever they’ve started. But perhaps it would help with situations where kiddo and I need to separate. Thanks.
anon says
My son will literally chase me and try to keep hitting or kicking which is why I lock the door and dad steps in.
Anonymous says
That’s a serious behavioural issue at 3.5. Have you tried enforcing the consequence with DH backing you up physically?
This is not going to get better as he gets older if your 3.5 year old can chase you into a room with physical violence. When he is calm there needs to be a firm conversation about logical consequences.
A friend used to require child to sit through a reread of two books about not hitting after each hitting episode and they were not permitted to return to the activity. Eg if they are playing legos, the legos are put away while child is in time out and legos are not permitted until the next day.
Anon says
Just wanted to say this is so timely for me. Dealing with a big uptick in tantrums from my 2.5 year old this week & realizing the gentler approaches which my DS responded to really well in the past suddenly don’t seem to be working any more. Kids man. As soon as I think I have my toddler figured out, he ups the game :) Appreciate this thread!
Anonymous says
My (now almost 5yo!!) was a big hitter/biter at that age. He wasn’t super verbal so that was part of it. He is not anymore! But I’d put him down or walk away or lock myself in another room. At 2 if he kicked the door it wouldn’t be a big deal (now it might actually be). Or sometimes i would go in his room and sit against his door so he couldn’t escape while he had the tantrum. For all my faults as a mom im usually cool as a cucumber during tantrums and wait them out. You can definitely be stern with “I don’t want to be hit” but getting really emotional can egg them on. My daughter was so easy with “gentle hands please” but my son was a challenge!
Anonymous says
Help me talk to my husband about dinner time rules in an empathetic way. He’s requiring our youngest (3) to take several bites of dinner, which I don’t love. Husband has food issues himself (was deprived of treats as a kid for being “fat”) so I try to be delicate about this stuff. Kiddo has also been sick recently and probably just doesn’t feel like eating. Last night it turned into a big battle with husband sending kiddo (3) to his room for two minutes after kiddo refused to eat. Kiddo then asked me to feed him, which I did, and he ate a few bites. Then he requested a banana and a cookie, which his brothers were eating. I gave them to him. This kid is super stubborn; saying “no cookie til you eat your dinner” will just result in a meltdown. Anyway, husband and I need to get on the same page about all this. Advice appreciated.
Anon says
Are you familiar with Ellyn Satter’s division of responsibility, and would husband be open to reading or listening to a podcast with her? For most kids, it seems the most logical approach – parents serve the meal, including one safe food, and kid decides how much to each. Husband is setting up a power struggle, and maybe he doesn’t realize it. You can also discuss your rules for snacks after meals, and both of you may need to give a little. Personally, if my kid doesn’t eat at dinner they don’t get the snack (remember, there is a safe food at dinner – maybe you can offer the safe food later), but if they only ate the safe food and I can tell they will be hungry overnight, I’ll offer a quick protein snack right before bed.
Also, we eat a lot of leftovers and if I know kid made an honest try and didn’t like the meal the first time, I will probably give him a couple safe foods the next night, enough to fill up on.
Anonymous says
I am not a fan of Satter for picky kids because IME it just reinforces the pickiness and rewards stubbornness. The “safe foods” concept is particularly troublesome because with truly picky kids the list of safe foods will decrease over time as their aversions become entrenched and they tire of previously accepted foods.
In OP’s situation I would not offer dessert after dinner, whether or not it’s tied to eating dinner. If it is tied to eating dinner it becomes part of the power struggle; if not, it encourages the picky child to skip dinner because he knows he’s getting something more appealing later. I prefer to offer dessert and treats as an afternoon snack with no strings attached. I also limit portion sizes on dessert and treats, which Satter would not condone.
Anonymous says
OP here – husband is not a fan of serving safe foods because kiddo will only eat that, day after day. Also 100% of his safe foods are carbs. I think that’s the issue husband has with it: you can’t just eat only carbs your whole life. So yesterday I made tacos. I gave kiddo a tortilla (safe food), seasoned meat, and sour cream (also a safe food). Kiddo ate sour cream, announced he was done. That’s when the battle began. I hear what you’re saying about dessert but I’m not going to not allow his siblings no dessert when he doesn’t eat and frankly I didn’t want to start another battle over dessert with this kid right after dad had made dinner a huge issue. IMO, kiddo did eat his dinner (when I fed him, by his request) so he was entitled to dessert like his siblings. Anyway, I’ll talk to husband and I probably also need to be more thoughtful. Basically where I’m at rn is I don’t really care and husband does. I wish I could make him see that by digging in, he’s kind of doing exactly what was done to him.
Anon says
I think your husband is generally being too uptight. Plenty of 3 year olds live on carbs. By all means keep offering a variety of foods, but unless there is a medical issue a ped has identified, I think it’s fine to just let him eat what he likes and he’ll grow out of the pickiness eventually.
Anonymous says
That’s exactly why I would start serving dessert at a different time of day. If it’s not a reward for eating dinner, then you don’t have to worry about depriving anyone or comparisons.
Another thing to think about is what and whether he eats at other meals. If he’s eating fruit, veg, and protein at lunch at day care, it might be perfectly fine for dinner to be a tortilla with sour cream. I find that dinner tends to be the biggest battle because traditional dinner foods are less kid-friendly than foods for other meals, and both kids and parents are tired and cranky by dinnertime.
Finally, dads demanding that kids eat is often not so much about food as it is about power and “respect.” Many men in this generation were still raised to revere and fear their dads and they expect their children to do the same, so when their kids refuse to instantly do as they are told it makes the dads feel powerless and emasculated, which infuriates them. Dinner is a particularly vulnerable time for this because it was probably the main interaction they had with their own fathers growing up.
Former Junior Associate says
I’m a little worried that I’ll sound like I’m being a jerk, but sour cream is very much not a carb, which makes me wonder if maybe your kid has a few more protein/fat foods that they eat that you’re not thinking of. Dairy is a biggie; if your kid drinks milk with dinner or whatever meal, that’s a real amount of protein they’re getting.
Anonymous says
I am glad to hear that my child is not the only one who eats sour cream on its own as if it were an actual food and not a condiment.
Anon says
I don’t understand Satter saying don’t regulate dessert portion sizes. I realize that some people may be lucky enough to have kids who self-regulate, but mine would eat six cupcakes if we let her. And it’s not like she doesn’t have regular access to sweets, so it’s not a “forbidden fruit” or anything like that. I think she’s just inherited her mom’s sweet tooth and doesn’t have the best impulse control. IMO, telling a kid they can only have one cupcake is totally normal and reasonable.
CCLA says
The picky eater (7) I posted about below would do just that. Her younger sister (5) will eat half a donut and announce that she doesn’t want any more, or that she doesn’t feel like having a cookie today. Wild; even I rarely have that kind of self awareness! The older one on the other hand would consume only sweets if given the choice.
Anon says
Satter does say to regulate dessert size, but to serve it along with dinner so it’s not on a pedestal or viewed as a reward (I haven’t been brave enough to try that, though). She says to *occasionally* serve a treat like cookies as a snack instead and let them eat as much as they want, to combat scarcity mentality. But she does make a “portion size” exception for dessert.
And honestly, in our family we do have portion size limits within reason, because you can’t eat 30 shrimp and leave the rest of the family with none! But we know they must be full enough, and if they want to keep eating they can try something else
BlueAlma says
As I said above and as anon notes below, Satter absolutely says to regulate dessert portions at meals.
On several occasions we have given our somewhat picky 4yo dessert with his meal. He almost invariably circles back and eats the very dinner he was rejecting. I also try to make sure the sweets aren’t nutritionally worthless. They can be a source of fat or protein or fruit to help round out the meal.
CCLA says
Our super stubborn kiddo does better with light requirements, which we established in cooperation with her OT that she was seeing for picky eating issues. We respect when she is full and doesn’t want to eat anything at all, but we will require certain things like some fruit/veg to start, for instance. We also offer reasonable servings of sweets that are separated from dinner. I know there’s a big push to not label foods as “good” or “bad” and we don’t use that language, but our kids are 5 and 7 and esp the older one is old enough to understand the concept that your body needs a variety of things and some things are good in moderation but harmful in larger quantities.
Anon says
I see your point, but what is the alternative? Only giving the child what they like (seems to have the same problem of promoting pickiness), or requiring they take bites of things they don’t like and then go hungry? I have kids extremely prone to power struggles, so the latter would be a problem. They have all gone though picky stages around ages 4-7, some worse than others, but I agree with Satter that even having those foods on the plate counts as exposure, and may help them come back around in the future. (Honestly asking, not being condescending!)
Anonymous says
I am the person to whom you are responding. Honestly, we had to start by requiring our child to drink a full cup of milk before she left the table at dinner. At first this resulted in epic meltdowns and power struggles. Once she started taking in some fats and proteins and got her body out of carb-only/starvation mode, she became willing to eat a slightly wider variety of things and would consume small servings of more foods without much of a battle. I figured out what her texture and flavor triggers were and deconstructed her meals to work around them. For example, she had to have a vegetable, but if the adults were having a bitter vegetable like broccoli I’d make her peas or carrots. If we were having spaghetti with meat sauce I’d give her some of the browned meat with buttered noodles on the side. For slightly older kids you can have a default alternate option that they can fix themselves if they don’t like what you are serving, like cottage cheese or PB toast for the main course and baby carrots for the veg.
BlueAlma says
Satter absolutely condones limiting portion sizes on desserts at meal times. She couldn’t be clearer on this.
Anonymous says
But she says 1) to offer the dessert WITH the meal, which means that a picky kid will eat the dessert and nothing else and 2) not to regulate portion sizes at other times. Both of these edicts are absolutely wrong when dealing with genuinely picky eaters.
Anon says
this worked well for us and my picky kid (who wasn’t picky until she turned 2.5) who didn’t eat meat for two years started eating it again. funny enough my picky eater is more likely to try a new food than my less picky eater. i also try to think about what my kids eat over the course of a week and not just at one particular meal.
Anon says
+1 to Ellen Satter’s Division of Responsibility approach would be a good compromise with your DH. I am actually more lenient than most on this board – my 3-year old had graham crackers for dinner last night (this is not DoR-approved). I am against forcing kids to eat. Ask DH how he would feel if someone forced him to eat when he wasn’t hungry, or forced him to eat something he didn’t like.
Anon says
Also, it is very common for a 3-year old’s diet to be mostly carbs. They are active and need lots of carbs!
Anonymous says
It might be worth raising the context of the time of day. We realized a few years ago with my now-4-year old that he was much less likely to actually eat at dinner v. other meals because he’s tired. It’s not about the food (he’s not picky); sometimes he’s just sort of had it with the day and isn’t going to eat much at 6 pm. It seems counterproductive to urge a tired kid to pull it together at that point, so we don’t really worry about it since he’s eating just fine throughout the rest of the day.
Anon says
Yup, this is super common.
Anonymous says
I think this is why a lot of people do two dinners: kid dinner of chicken nuggets at 5 p.m. and adult dinner of real food after the kids go to bed. I don’t have the energy for two dinners, but I can see how other parents might not have the energy for the battle that family dinner can be.
Anonymous says
I originally posted about the timing. I totally understand why families do this (particularly when kids are getting hangry or it’s just becoming a rough pattern), but we don’t unless my husband and I have specifically planned to have an at-home date night after bedtime (so, I guess we often do this on Saturdays, but not during the week). It doesn’t really work well with our weekday schedules, but also, even though I don’t really care how much my kid eats at dinner (and I should say, it’s not zero most of the time, it’s just usually less than at other meals), I still really want to sit down as a family and chat even if it’s just briefly before he asks to go play trains. The social part is the most important to me, which is another reason I try to avoid any power struggles then; I really want it to just be a nice experience for all of us.
Boston Legal Eagle says
Ask him what his top goals for dinner are – is it that all of you sit down together for at least a few minutes and eat together? If so, what they eat doesn’t really matter. I think it’s ok if your 3 year old just has safe foods day in and day out (my kids have pb&j for dinner half the week). I highly doubt he will grow up to only eat those foods. If his goal is to get kid to eat certain foods, then dinner might not be so peaceful and it will likely create a power struggle.
Anon says
in college i had a friend who was a VERY picky eater. she was a vegetarian who didn’t like yogurt, many kinds of cheese or eggs. she basically ate hummus. she is now a total foodie who eats everything!
AwayEmily says
ha, just realized I basically repeated what you did except using way more words (I think you said it better, actually)
GCA says
This is good advice. We are not a two-dinner family; kids pretty much get what we get; but the real goal for us is to sit down together as a family. Secondary goal is that kids try a range of different foods. They’re allowed to dislike it, they just have to try.
Also, with a 3yo, you can’t reason with them about food when they are hangry, ironically. A glass of milk and a slice of toast go a long way towards calming a kid down so you can explain the above to them.
AwayEmily says
I think it’s useful to maybe talk it through from the perspective of goals rather than rules. What are your goals for meals/eating? For us, our goals are:
1) Have mealtime be an enjoyable time where we talk and connect as a family
2) Help our kids turn into adults with balanced diets who enjoy a wide variety of food
Achieving the first goal meant we had to totally eliminate any pressure/requirements/coaxing, because that made mealtime horrible for everyone. Looking at the research around achieving the second goal, it is very clear that the best predictor of a balanced adult diet is not “trying lots of food when you are a toddler/elementary schooler,” it is “having parents who model balanced eating.” So my husband and I cook what we want (which includes lots and lots of salads, since my husband is a T1 diabetic), and sometimes the kids eat it and most of the times they don’t, but they clearly *see us* eating it, which is what matters.
Which is to say: because we are focused on keeping mealtimes enjoyable and pressure-free, we DO often cook separate meals for the kids — realistically, they are not going to eat a giant bowl of salad, and I don’t want to have that fight with them. They can have mac and cheese and steamed broccoli instead. Sometimes we all eat the same meal, sometimes we don’t, and I don’t evaluate my worth as a parent by how often we manage it (which I did for way too long before thinking more clearly about our goals as a family). I can’t remember the last time we argued about eating at the table, and it has been really life-changing for me.
Boston Legal Eagle says
I love your more detailed thoughts on the second :) I was certainly not an adventurous eater as a kid, but like most things now. And I do value that my parents didn’t talk about diets or “bad” foods or “good” foods.
Anon says
This is basically our philosophy, although we have a third point which is that we don’t (normally) cook a separate meal, so our picky kid can choose from things that are ready to eat or she can prepare herself. Most things she eats fall in that category anyway, except mac and cheese and we do try to keep leftovers of that on hand.
Anon says
In addition to Ellyn Satter other good resources are Feeding Littles, Yummy Toddler Food and Virginia Sole-Smith
Anonymous says
OP here. Thanks everyone for all your thoughts! I really appreciate all the perspectives and that everyone was kind. You offered lots for me to think about and discuss with my husband.
Anon says
I’m late to the party but I highly recommend Kids Eat in Color! She’s great and has good info but also realistic.
Anon says
She seems really disordered compared to some of the other big food influencers like Feeding Littles.
GCA says
Minor, low-stakes question. What lightweight pants do you like in shoulder seasons (spring or fall when temps are in the 40s-60s) with string bean kids? DD (almost 6) complains that her pants are falling off, and if they fit at the waist they are too short. She wants ‘soft pants’ in bright colors…with pockets. Is my solution here to look in the ‘boy’ clothing aisle or shell out for Primary?
Anoner says
Check out H and M boys section.
Anonymous says
Leggings?
Anonymous says
Sorry missed part about pockets. Try primary. Gap makes boys sweatpants that have pockets and are pretty thin (but gap runs wide IME). Maybe something like this?
https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=416924002&vid=1&tid=onpl000079&kwid=1&ap=7&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw26KxBhBDEiwAu6KXt5BS7QlOLcswbyOIm3APyLxPfjvo3XDw2Yx71JDLRDXiu4BHXOUYahoCkaEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#pdp-page-content
NYCer says
My 5 yo daughter just wears leggings at this time of year. I prefer the $5 Cat and Jack or Old Navy variety vs. Primary because they get beat up no matter what.
NYCer says
Oops I missed the pockets too! Sorry, can’t help….
Anon says
My 6 year old girl wears leggings year round except in the height of summer when it’s shorts weather. We mostly buy the $5 Old Navy ones because the quality of those seems not that much worse than Primary, and they’re much cheaper.
Boston Legal Eagle says
Yep, primary joggers – they tend to run narrow, but you’ll probably have to size up for her to get the length. Try the 6/7s, or even the 8s.
Anonymous says
Not to threadjack, but am I the only one who does not believe in pockets in childrens’ clothing? I despise clearing the gross debris out of pockets when sorting laundry.
Anon says
Yeah my kid has never expressed an interest in pockets and based on how gross her backpack and purses are, I’m glad!
GCA says
Ha, you’re lucky! I lucked out in the other direction, kiddo mostly does not put stuff in her pockets…she puts stuff in mine. But mostly she’s in a stick phase. There is a tidy pile of sticks outside our back door because she picks one or two up on every single walk.
DLC says
My almost five year old likes to wear leggings with shorts a skirt over top. I think it’s a sartorial choice for her, but she does the. have comfy pants on and pockets from the shorts/skirt.
GCA says
Thanks all! As I was digging through her closet to edit it for spring, I remembered the jeggings with pockets that I bought at Target last year. And hallelujah, they have adjustable side elastic tabs!