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Wide-leg trousers are still going strong. Here’s my pick for an easy-care, leg-lengthening pair.
These pants have crisp front pleats, ‘Ab’Solution pockets for shaping and lifting, and functional side-seam pockets. I’d add a tucked or half-tucked shirt (the versatile “toasted coconut” color pairs with nearly all neutrals as well as bolder colors like red), and a sleek belt for an easy office outfit.
Wit & Wisdom’s ‘Ab’Solution Skyrise Wide-Leg Pants are $88 at Nordstrom and come in sizes 0–16.
Here’s another option from Gap starting at $53 that comes in a few other colors and sizes (including tall and petites), but stock is limited.
Looking for other washable workwear? See all of our recent recommendations for washable clothes for work, or check out our roundup of the best brands for washable workwear.
Sales of note for 8.30.24
(See all of the latest workwear sales at Corporette!)
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 20% off
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lands’ End – 40% off sitewide; 50% off backpacks, 40% off kids’ apparel
- Loft – Summer sale, 30% off new arrivals; up to 50% off much more
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- Zappos – 28,000+ women’s sale items! (check out these reader-favorite workwear brands on sale, and some of our favorite kids’ shoe brands on sale)
Kid/Family Sales
- Carter’s – 50% off everything
- Hanna Andersson – Up to 40% off everything
- J.Crew Crewcuts – 40% off sitewide; extra 50% off sale styles
- Old Navy – 50-60% off; 50% off pants for the family
- Target – 20% off select clothing for all; up to 50% off home; up to 30% off select nursery furniture; up to 30% off kitchen & dining
Anonymous says
This is probably a heated topic…but talk to me about using melotonin with kids. I saw it come up as a suggestion yesterday and it came up with our pedi when one of our kids was having trouble sleeping. Our neighbors have used it with their kids for years and have told us they are basically flat-out dependent on it.
Pros? Cons? Are your kids on it “for life” or does it work well as an occasional thing?
We have stuck to trying to physically wear them down but that is pushing the limits.
Anonymous says
We give my 9 year old melatonin on most school nights. She’s getting a weighted blanket for Christmas, perhaps that will work instead. I’m don’t love it, the pediatrician says it’s fine. We don’t do it on weekends—try to make sure she gets lots of outside time.
Without it, she has trouble laying still to fall asleep, stays up late and is a bear to get up for school. Or she needs an adult to lay with her to fall asleep. With it she goes to bed and wakes up happy. Not groggy at all.
Anonymous says
Is the plan to keep her on it forever? This is our struggle when we think about the pros and cons.
Anonymous says
Works for now and we reevaluate as we go. Nothing is fixed. I don’t feel like it’s habit forming. We don’t do it every day
anonM says
We use it occasionally, like vacation. It is helpful for those types of nights were instead of an overstimulated, overtired kid keeping themselves up for hours, they go right to sleep. But, we don’t use nightly.
Anon says
I use low dose (1/2 to 1 mg) melatonin occasionally, for both myself and my kids. My kids are definitely not dependent on it, and we use it in situations where there’s a pretty obvious explanation for their sleep disruption (jetlag, etc.). There are people who need it daily because their bodies don’t naturally produce enough of it, but they are in the minority and I think most kids probably don’t fall into that category. Most people can take it on an as-needed basis. It’s not like a traditional sleeping pill. It doesn’t knock me or my kids out, not even to the degree that something like Benadryl does. It just makes it somewhat easier to fall asleep at the right time.
Anon says
I have a friend who uses it with her daughter and she is very conflicted about it. It doesn’t really seem to work that well, she’s concerned that the supplement industry is not regulated, etc. I think those concerns are founded but I don’t really have a better solution. I know there must be one though because melatonin was not used for this for most of the last 50 years and optimizing child sleep industry did not exist until the last 10 or 20. What did we do before?
Anon says
Computer and smartphone screens are well known to disrupt the body’s natural production of melatonin. And spending less time outside also impacts melatonin production and sleep, and people today spend much more time inside and on devices than people did 20 years ago. (I’m not judging anyone for screen usage – my kids have plenty of screen time, and for most of our kids a decent amount of it is baked into their school day regardless of what we do at home. But I do think there are obvious reasons why melatonin supplementation wasn’t as necessary 20 years ago, so the “people were fine without melatonin in the past” argument isn’t that compelling to me.)
Anon says
I would be curious if readers here who have strict limits on screen time feel less need for melatonin for their kids. I wish there were a way to do a representative survey here! Honestly, it seems like my friends would do almost anything to get their kids to sleep better and maybe screens should be where they look next. Obviously they are all around us in some fashion but it would be amazing if you could see a significant benefit in sleep with relatively modest cuts to recreational screen time at home. Maybe it’s a pipe dream but it does make you wonder.
Anon says
If I had to guess, I would guess it’s more closely correlated to screen usage within X hours of bedtime than total screentime. I know for adults who struggle with insomnia there’s a recommendation to be screen-free for I think 2 hours before bed. My kid gets quite a bit of screen time but almost never in the late afternoons and evenings, and we’ve never used melatonin.
Anon says
I’m a sample of 1, but we do no screens on weekdays and have never used melatonin. On weekends they have tv before dinner (but never tablets, etc) and a slightly later bedtime and it’s also been fine. I’m the poster below who said I am willing to push bedtimes back a bit as needed, though, if the kids don’t seem sleepy. My older son has one-off nights of not being able to fall asleep, but by the next night he’s fine. I do think there could be something to the blue light theory (which research backs up, so perhaps my opinion is unnecessary lol).
One thing I have noticed totally wrecks sleep for him, though, is soda! He RARELY has it, and only at friend’s houses or parties (aka I never buy it), but he always has trouble falling asleep those nights.
Anonymous says
Eh, my kid gets no screen time outside of during school on weekdays and still can’t sleep well. It’s not always screens!
Anonymous says
Screens are not always the devil. I have an anxious kid who uses a bit of screen time at bedtime to turn her brain off. She falls asleep much more quickly if she gets to watch a show at bedtime than she does if I insist that she read a book or just lie there quietly in the dark. Maybe you could use audiobooks for this purpose, but TV works great for us.
Anonymous says
Anecdotally my kids get very little screen time, none many days, and currently both get melatonin (1/8 to 1/4 mg). One because we were wearing him off the pacifier for falling asleep and one because he has serious behavior issues at school if he doesn’t get enough sleep, and has trouble falling asleep unless he’s had at least 3-4 hours of hard physical activity, which is not always possible on school days. Like others I am conflicted about it but I also can’t have my kid get expelled from school.
Anon says
I responded below on behalf of my ADHD/OCD kid. He has strict screen limits because screens (especially iPads or a computer) really exacerbate some specific issues he has. The limits are self-imposed. He doesn’t like how an iPad or video games make him feel, and he has a hard time calming down after playing a game, especially on a small screen. He will use Melatonin when he needs a hard reset on sleep, and it’s too late for his very long wind down routine, and frankly, if I wasn’t concerned about long term use, I’d happily give it to him every night b/c lack of sleep impacts him so much (he only uses it once or twice a month). I also don’t think he’s looked at a screen at our house for more than 30 mins in the last two months of his own volition.
My daughter is not impacted by screens, but hates Melatonin bc she had very vivid bad dreams one time when she took it a few years ago. She also can be on an iPad, then be asleep like 10 minutes later.
So, in my house, screen use is not correlated with Melatonin (kids are 12 and 14). FWIW, I generally dislike the prevailing theory on this board that screen use is automatically bad. For my son, it objectively is, and he has opted out of it wherever possible. For my daughter, it objectively isn’t. It feels like a stretch to suggest that if these parents just didn’t give their kids a screen at night, they wouldn’t need melatonin.
Anonymous says
I am the OP. We are pretty average on screen time, maybe a little more conservative than our friend group peers but more lax than some on this board.
We don’t use it now, but my kids are VERY active. And when they aren’t, they are a bear and a half to get to bed/sleep. My 10 year old had a great night sleep after skiing in Vermont for a full day with her dad. My 6 year old had a great night sleep after spending 2 hours in a pool swimming at a b’day party. That sort of thing.
We do have all the kids do 20+ minutes of reading before bed, and we don’t allow screens for my 5 and 7 year old after dinner. We let our older kid watch sports on TV because she goes to bed late anyway and she’s a rabid fan. They have a chrome book at home that they share but they each have an hour limit on it. They also watch TV. But…they have other stuff to keep them busy so they aren’t really using the screens that much.
Anon says
Man, you never sleep better than after a full day outside, especially for skiing. Love it.
Anon says
Agreed! We skied over spring break a few years ago, and it was sunny and cold. We ALL slept like rocks that week – the combination of physical exertion, bright sunshine, and cold weather was incredible for all of us.
Anonymous says
If it doesn’t work that well I don’t see why she would continue using it.
Anon says
She says it’s desperation :( Her kid also recently had her adenoids and tonsils out so they’re hoping that might improve matters.
anon says
There was an article on how it’s not regulated so the dosage can vary a lot in each bottle. that was enough for me to say no.
anon says
Our ped has told us to use melatonin as a tool for 1-2 weeks to get back on track / reset sleep schedules but doesn’t necessarily recommend using it all the time. My kid with ADHD is prone to sleep issues, which of course exacerbates the ADHD presentation, so it’s a tradeoff.
Anon says
+1. My ADHD/OCD kid really struggles without sleep, so I’ll use it when the lack of sleep catches up to him and he’s really struggling to calm his body or mind. I only use it when I’m really desperate – maybe two or three times a month? He doesn’t need it if he has enough time to draw or read in bed under a weighted blanket before we turn the lights off, but that assumes I can get him in bed with enough time for him to read or draw for like 20 minutes, then listen to a relaxation story for another 15 minutes with the lights off, then still needs like 10 minutes to actually fall asleep.
As he gets older, our evenings get shorter, he has sports practice most days or does some kind of exercise – running on the treadmill or playing his sport in our backyard (almost as important as sleep to him, so it’s a freaking tradeoff), then dinner, then shower, then bed, so he doesn’t always have time for the full sleep wind down. That said, I get really nervous about the unknowns of the long term effect of melatonin, so I really try not to use it too often or have him think he needs it to sleep. Given his OCD, we have to be really careful about patterns or habits, as he can get “stuck” needing to do something.
Anon says
I get this, I have OCD and am taking Unisom for morning sickness right now. I’m all anxious about whether I’ll be able to wean off or if I’ll have some weird rebound and have to stay on it all 9 months. The thought spirals, man. As such, I also try really really hard to only add in crucial supports
Anon says
Sending all the love your way! You’ll be okay to wean — my son loves a good change in circumstance to help him out of a behavior or thought when he’s stuck. So here, mentally it might help you as you cross into the second tri to use that (or some other clear number of weeks demarcation) as your stopping point. OCD can be super tough, but also a super power.
Anonymous says
45 minutes to fall asleep including reading time seems very normal or even short to me! You really expect him to fall asleep the minute he climbs into bed? I would adjust the schedule and pull him from sports practice a few minutes early if necessary before giving him melatonin if he can fall asleep with the routine you describe. I have never heard of a child or adult falling asleep in less than 30 minutes unless drugs are involved.
Anonymous says
Ha, you haven’t met my husband, who can fall asleep within 3-5 min of lying down EVERY TIME and thinks I’m weird that it takes me 15-45 min to fall asleep.
Anon says
Oh my! This feels like a rather aggressive response to my comment that he takes melatonin once or twice a month when he is really struggling with behavior that stems from being overtired. If it wasn’t clear from my comment, the wind down routine doesn’t work when he’s overtired, AND sometimes he really does need to just fall asleep. Don’t appreciate the judgment of what works for our family though!
Anon says
My 6 year old is always asleep within 5 minutes (some days it seems more like 30 seconds!) and has never had any sleep aids. She gets it from my husband who is the same way. I agree it’s normal to need some time in bed before falling asleep, but I also think it’s very normal to fall asleep quickly. People are just different.
Anon says
I have not tried it, because when my kids have gone through periods of trouble falling asleep we adjust sleep schedules and that seems to work. It’s entirely possible kids may need less sleep/later bedtimes (or shorter/no naps) at certain times of year, especially if they aren’t as active. (Or, as they get older.) I know some families are very committed to The Schedule and will stress over later bedtimes, but to me it seems preferable to mess with those variables before turning to a medication. It definitely can impede your body’s natural production ability.
That said, I do believe it can help you get through a rough patch if you’re tried everything else, and that type of reset can be helpful.
New Here says
We use it occasionally, like vacation or if she had a late or long nap that throws her schedule off.
Anon says
I don’t think I’m comfortable with it, but it’s also kind of a moot point because I also don’t think we need it. My kids don’t go to be early, which is fine with me. They’re never going to be the kids that go to bed at 7PM.
Anon says
My kid is a naturally great sleeper and we’ve never needed it with her, but I wouldn’t hesitate to use it if we had some of the sleep struggles my friends have had with their kids. I take in myself, and it’s the safest sleep aid according to my endocrinologist, who is a big proponent of melatonin for people who struggle with sleep. It’s true that in the US supplements are not as closely regulated as medicines, and there have been some studies that show that dosage can be higher than what’s printed on the bottle, but according to my doctor that’s a reason to start with a low dose, not a reason to avoid it completely. He also mentioned that some companies are more reputable than others and gave me a list of a few of the more reputable ones. Our ped is also fine with it, and has suggested it to us for travel since we travel frequently, but we’ve never needed to use it.
Anon says
It’s not that supplements “aren’t as closely regulated” – they’re NOT regulated at all. It’s honestly a Wild West out there and there is a huge chance of getting counterfeit, contaminated, or expired medication when you order from Amazon in particular. It’s really messed up!
Anon says
The Amazon thing is true of medicines too, but yes my doctor recommended avoiding Amazon, and I’ve never ordered either medicine or supplements from there.
anon says
We used it in the past for a period of time with my current kindergartener at the advice of her sleep medicine specialist. She had sleep apnea, and also has ADHD and sensory processing disorder. We eventually removed tonsils and adenoids to address the sleep apnea, but by that point the combination of going so long with terrible quality and broken sleep + adhd and spd was wreaking havoc on bedtime. The doctor recommended the Natrol brand, we started with 0.5mg, bumped up to 1mg for a bit, then eventually tapered off. We still use it occasionally for both our kids for things like jet leg or when things are just off the rails.
AwayEmily says
Like most people here, we use it every once in awhile — jet lag, if for some reason the kid got a terrible night of sleep the night before and we want to make sure they fall asleep early and catch up. We probably average out to twice a month? I do the same thing — I take a Unisom if I have had a couple of nights of troubled sleep in a row, so that I can catch up.
That being said I would absolutely use it more often (in addition to other interventions, of course) if we were facing big sleep problems. At least for my kids, sleep is the #1 factor affecting their mood, regulation, and life more generally.
Anon says
we use it occassionally. on vacation, to get a reset, on a night i know they will have trouble falling asleep. my bestie is a pediatrician and she does the same thing. i myself take a small dose every night, but i’m pretty sure at this point it is more psychological than actually doing much
Anonymous says
I often wonder whether the people relying on melatonin have tried just putting their kids to bed later. If you have a night owl kid, you are not going to be successful at disrupting their natural body rhythms with chemicals and a super early bedtime and draconian screen restrictions and blackout shades. For many of these kids, a later bedtime and/or dropping daytime naps will get them to fall asleep earlier and sleep more soundly. I know parents want their evening downtime, but with some kids that’s just not realistic.
Anonymous says
Not so simple. My 8 year old really needs at minimum 10 hours of sleep to not have significant behavior issues at school (11 hours better) and often can’t fall asleep. If it weren’t for the behavior issues I’d say sure go to bed later! But that doesn’t solve the underlying problem of hours of sleep.
Anonymous says
The point is that a slightly later bedtime may lead to more hours of sleep.
Anonymous says
Right, except if bedtime is 8 with melatonin he’s asleep by 8:30 and gets 10-11 hours. If bedtime is 9 or 9:30 without it, that’s significantly less sleep even if he falls asleep immediately (which he doesn’t, he’ll be up till 10/10:30).
Anon says
I don’t think it’s about parents wanting “evening downtime” and the seems kind of judgy. The parents I know who use melatonin consistently (not just when traveling, etc.) do so because without it their kids wouldn’t get enough sleep. Sleep is REALLY important, especially for kids. I see a sleep neurologist and he said that while “natural” sleep is the best, melatonin-aided sleep is much better than not enough sleep, because lack of sleep is linked to all kinds of mental and physical health problems. And I think it’s an even bigger issue for kids than adults.
TheElms says
I think it depends on what time the kid has to be up for school. School starts at 8:15am for us, we have to leave at 7:55am to make sure we arrive on time (kid has to be in her classroom by 8:15am). So DD wakes up at 7:25am, that gives us 30 minutes to get up, go to the bathroom, finish getting dressed (sleeps in some of her school clothes), eat breakfast, brush hair, and brush teeth. There is basically no wiggle room. She needs 11-12 hours of sleep a night. So that means her fall asleep time has to be between 7:25pm and 8:25pm. Without melatonin she doesn’t naturally fall asleep until around 9-10pm (average being 9:30pm), and that’s only 10 hours a sleep, which isn’t enough. She has less than 20 minutes of screen time a day during the week and some days it is no screen time. She has 3 outdoor recess periods a day at school unless its pouring rain, and we try to get outside after school as well.
Anon says
Agreed – this is the situation for most people I know who use melatonin regularly. And 8:15 is unfortunately not an unusually early start, the national average is 8 am and there are states where the average start time is 7:30 am. That is brutal, particularly on teens who normally have a naturally more late-shifted schedule, but it is what it is.
Anonymous says
Somewhat weirdly the moms I know who are most aggressive about melotonin are pediatricians!
I use melotonin occasionally for two reasons: 1) to wean myself from NyQuil after being sick or 2) if I’m going through a period of super extreme insomnia. I really try to avoid it, though, and would not give it to my kids. I find that it gives me strange dreams, which I’ve heard is true in children as well. And the lack of FDA regulation concerns me, as well as psychology of connecting something that my kids would think of as candy to sleep.
Because I struggle with insomnia quite frequently, I’ve done a lot of work to build better habits and follow all the advice around getting fresh air first thing in the morning, taking time for exercise, avoiding caffeine after noon, winding down at bedtime, etc. I know that some parents probably feel like these steps are not possible for their kids given their families schedules, but for my kids I know I would do whatever it takes in terms of fresh air, cognitive behavioral therapy etc before turning to melotonin. You really have to address the underlying issue, and it worries me that so many people are not doing that.
Spirograph says
Responding before reading the other comments. For the past year or two, my 5th grader asks for a 1mg melatonin gummy a few times a week on days that he hasn’t had strenuous exercise. He’s not dependent, but he will toss and turn for a long time and stay up way later than he should without it if he’s not physically worn out (which is why we tried melatonin to begin with). He has not been a good sleeper since he was 2. I’ll give it to my younger kids occasionally if we have a very early morning the next day, just to be sure they get enough sleep. We’ve talked to our pediatrician about this usage and they didn’t express any concerns.
Anon says
Does anyone have tips for working with my 1st grade daughter on reading comprehension? She reads well now and understands a lot of what shes reading but i dont think shes focused on details. Im not sure how you improve this skillset though.. are there workbooks? thank you!
Anon says
That seems very normal for first grade and is not something I’d specifically focus on. Just keeping reading to her and having her practice reading aloud as much as she’s willing.
Mary Moo Cow says
We just went through this with my 3rd grader, so FWIW: we tried very hard to keep reading fun. We read the book with her (Harry Potter for fun reading and Ralph S. Mouse for school) and had conversations with her about it (I don’t think she was fooled that we weren’t trying to make this a learning exercise, but we tried.) We asked questions like, “How did Hermoine react?” or “Remind me why Ralph wanted the motorcycle…” and when she didn’t know or couldn’t answer, talked it through. We even pulled the book out and re-read it ourselves to feign comprehension. We also banned graphic novels and diary books (Wimpy Kid, etc.) until she pulled her grade up from an F to a B. As for building the skills with writing, her teacher suggested having her redo school assignments at home. So when she brought home a reading comp assignment that was a 40%, we copied it, whited out her answers, and made her sit down and do it at home. It took one time. Her next assignments have all been nearly 100 percent. She’s pulled her grade up to a C+ she’s feeling good about getting it up to a B. So, at 1st grade, I wouldn’t worry too much, but do take a look at the books she’s reading and consider whether they are fostering some lazy reading habits. Also reach out to her teacher for a gut check and solutions.
Anon says
I’m mostly surprised your third grader gets letter grades! And curious, does your daughter still read as much for pleasure after you banned the graphic novels (aka, did she really switch to harder books, or did she stop reading as much?)
Mary Moo Cow says
Letter grades start in 3rd grade at our school, and I’m off two minds. She’s excited about it, it makes her feel like a big kid, and it motivates her, and it gives us a more complete picture of skills and abilities because individual assignments earn a numerical grade instead of pass/fail, but, it seems like a lot of pressure for middle elementary. As a recovering all A’s parent pleaser, I’ve had to talk and talk and talk with DH about adjusting my own expectations of DD. She’s our oldest, too, so we’re figuring it out as we go.
Initially, she just read less, but after a week, she picked HP back up and started re-reading her American Girl books and Amelia Bedelia chapter books and picked up more Beverly Clearly. (Side note: I forgot to respond to a question ages ago, but yes, there are young Amelia Bedelia chapter books! Two distinct series: Amelia Bedelia, when she’s 2nd or 3rd grade, and Amelia Bedelia & Friends, when she’s 4th or 5th grade. DD8 has really enjoyed both in second grade and now third.) I’m now reading Harriet the Spy out loud to her and she’ll read it on her own if I don’t get far enough for her liking at bedtime.
Anonymous says
Wow, our district doesn’t do letter grades until middle school. We get “P” (proficient, mastery) “G” (good, solid foundation), “S” (with support), “N” (not present).
Nobody gets all Ps in the first half of the year. Strong students do by the end of the year, but it’s also find to have Gs. If you are getting “S”s at the end of the year you aren’t meeting grade level expectations.
I told my 4th grader “straight Ps” is like straight As in my book, so she got a big high five for that.
Anon says
Isn’t this effectively letter grades, just with different letters? I remember my elementary school had a system like that and by mid to late elementary, I knew which letter was an A, a B, and so on?
Anonymous says
I’d encourage you to focus on nonfiction if reading comprehension is the issue. Schools start testing for comprehension around 3rd grade, and it’s why reading scores drop off so dramatically nationwide around that age group. Schools teach decoding decently enough in the early grades. But they do not typically excel at teaching comprehension, and that is because comprehension requires outside knowledge of the world and should involve lessons that incorporate science, social studies, history, etc. Some fiction can deliver that knowledge, but a lot of the stuff that schools rely on will not do the job (and nor will Harry Potter, sadly).
Check out the Core Knowledge Foundation if you’re interested in learning more.
Anonymous says
I agree on banning graphic novels. Studying a sophisticated graphic novel in a high school literature class where you are critically analyzing how the drawings contribute to the themes of the story, fine. But little kid graphic novels are garbage that destroys the love of actual reading. It’s like giving kids Lucky Charms and then expecting them to go back to eating plain Cheerios.
Anon says
As a counterpoint, graphic novels were my kid’s entree to reading and I don’t think she’d have nearly as much enthusiasm for reading without them. From the ages of 0 to 5 she had almost zero interest in being read to, but when she was 5 she discovered BSC Little Sister graphic novels and fell in love with them, and once she was very familiar with the characters we were able to introduce the same books in chapter book form, which has led to the introduction of other chapter books. Our elementary school teachers and librarians have all been emphatic that kids should be allowed to read what they want, even if they’re not doing very well in school. At this age fostering a love of reading is the most important thing, and for some kids graphic novels can really help with that.
Anonymous says
Have her read aloud with you and stop frequently to ask questions about the story, the characters, what the characters are thinking and feeling, and what she predicts will happen next.
Anonymous says
There are workbooks but they are extremely bad.
Anonymous says
What helped with us is watching TV shows together and talking about them during the shows. Like we (the adults) would react to what was happening, and picking apart details and character motivations and connecting to other things in the show (ok it was an anime) and she joined in more and more. I noticed that it then became easier to do the same with her when reading books. I think listening in to us analyze and pick apart the show was helpful to her, like she needed a model for how to do it.
Anonymous says
We did this with movies and it’s very helpful.
Anon says
Do any Bay Area readers have experience with delivering their babies at UCSF at Mission Bay? I’m about to start working with them for my second pregnancy (first was a miscarriage) and there are some non-patient-friendly features that I’m nervous about – things like auto-scheduling an appointment for me without actually confirming that I’m available at that time, following up after my hospitalization for miscarriage with a robo-call, putting the burden on the patient to jump through insurance hoops despite me having no access to relevant info, and a few similar things. I need to see a high-risk provider and they seem incredibly knowledgeable about my rare conditions (something I may not be able to get anywhere else because both of my conditions are so specialized), but I don’t necessarily feel very respected for the day-to-day part and many friends have told me how important that is. I have heard good things about the hospital there for labor and delivery but haven’t experienced that yet. Any thoughts?
UCSF pregnancy says
I was a high risk patient at UCSF for two pregnancies and was very happy with the medical experience. I saw a midwife at the Mt. Zion campus for most of my care, an MFM/the PACT (cardiac issues in pregnancy) clinic at Mission Bay for an appointment or two, and delivered at Mission Bay (once an induction that ended in a c section; once an elective induction). I really liked my midwife, the PACT team, and the people I ultimately worked with in delivery (both times), and I really appreciated that UCSF let me do most of my care with the midwife and then deal with the high-risk group as and when necessary. My sense is that that is somewhat unusual in the world at large, but it seemed really normal for UCSF.
Administratively, the scheduling setup is not great, and I never really figured out how to make it better for myself other than scheduling thigs as far in advance as possible and checking my MyChart semi-regularly just to sort of keep tabs on things. I do think my Mt. Zion scheduling experience was generally better than at Mission Bay, so if there’s an option for you to see someone outside of Mission Bay for your regular appointments, that may be something to try. No insurance issues so I can’t speak to that part.
Happy to answer any additional questions you might post, or to connect directly if you post a burner.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
Just adding to the thread that came up a few days ago (or was it longer? What is time?) about the picky 5.5 year old. I picked up DS #1, 6, from aftercare, and he asked what was for dinner. I told him chicken curry with veg and rice, and he groaned and started throwing a fit. WE ALWAYSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS HAVE CHICKEN CURRY OR DAAL OR KEEMA WHYYY IS IT SOOOO BORING. WHY CAN’T WE HAVE ANYTHING FUN EVER???? (Please note, my kids had the nefarious Chick-Fil-A on Monday night for dinner…)
So although yes, he ate it (and left all the carrots and peppers on his plate)…he would 100% prefer a dinner of chicken nuggets and string cheese. And I wouldn’t have to hear complaining. Which on MANY (most? all?) nights would be very worth it.
Anon says
I have long observed comments here and elsewhere saying things like “I’m a lazy mom, I just made grilled cheese and an apple for dinner” and I’m always thinking in my head “what’s the problem there?” I do care about nutrition and I try to buy quality products but also, simple kid friendly meals that just get on the table sound pretty damn good. We’ll see what happens when my baby actually arrives.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
Also, a grilled cheese and apple sounds…really good. Especially if someone else made it :)
HSAL says
Yeah, in some “easy meal” threads it’s like “oh yes those are my standard meals.” Frozen tortellini with jarred sauce? Is there any other kind of sauce? I will never be a sauce from scratch person.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
After I started using Rao’s, I’ve never looked back and lost any “guilt” I had about using jarred sauce. I feel like GCA and I were in big agreement on this one at one point!
If I’m feeling fancy beyond the jarred sauce and frozen pasta with baby spinach:
sauté some veg (like clean-out-the-fridge), dump in jarred sauce, add whatever seasoning(s), let it simmer (or not) + immersion blender = you get your veg with the frozen tortellini :)
Anon says
Omg Rao’s is so good! Their ingredient list is short and it’s so expensive if you don’t get it on sale at Costco so my kids are lucky to have it. (I grew up on Prego).
Anonymous says
Rao’s is so salty, though! I am too old to be able to process that much sodium so I buy the store brand that has half as much salt.
Anon says
Yes!! I never realized there was such a thing as feeling guilty for using jarred sauce until I was like, 33. #noregrets
Oops says
Haha, I didn’t realize this until age 39 (as in, today).
Anon says
I was in my mid 20s when I learned you could make meatballs, pasta, and sauce all from scratch. We were very much a frozen meatballs, boxed pasta, and jarred sauce family! We had homemade meals almost every night, but they were almost never from scratch (which, duh, I had two working parents).
Now that I’m the adult, I make sure every meal has a vegetable and a protein and like my parents, a lot of it is homemade but not from scratch. Like last night we had chicken / veggie stir fry: I used a frozen stir fry veggie mix, stir fry sauce from a jar, chicken, and microwave rice. Cook the chicken and veggies in a pan on the stove, microwave the rice, top it with sauce. Voila – dinner in 20 minutes.
I feel like I’m being healthy or fancy when I do Annie’s Mac and cheese as a side instead of Kraft and use Rao’s sauce instead of Prego.
Anonymous says
I’m dying that your kid thinks daal and curry are boring. Can I be your kid? My partner and I joke that the longer it took the prepare, the less likely my kids are to eat it. Dad sears a steak? Yes! Chicken nuggets in the air fryer? Even better! Homemade lasagna? How. Dare you. I will have toast.
AwayEmily says
This is an EXCELLENT heuristic.
anon in brooklyn says
This is 100% true.
Anon says
My kids are picky, but in the opposite ways of most kids. They refuse to eat pizza, fish sticks, chicken nuggets, or burgers. They love mussels with blue cheese, artichokes, oysters, curries, sushi/sashimi, pho, etc. They do best at restaurants where they can’t identify anything on the menu. It’s typical for them to scoff at the kids menu and for one to ask for a poke bowl and the other to want paella. The only fast food they’ll reliably eat is a Cava bowl.
It’s really awkward when they refuse to eat at kid birthdays, sleepovers or on field trips. They won’t eat any normal kid foods. (And my husband and I don’t model this–we are happy to help eat pizza, burgers, etc. It’s all them.) It’s also really annoying to try to feed them ever night. They will eat pasta and tacos, but most other easy options aren’t acceptable.
Anonymous says
My kid is like this too. We had to put limits on sushi because it was busting our budget. It’s really embarrassing because people think you are snooty parents if your kid won’t eat pizza. No, we just have a picky eater and they are not all alike.
Anon says
I was like your kids but was raised on the foods I didn’t like since it’s all that was around! I very honestly just didn’t like food very much until at restaurants in my teens I tried cuisines that weren’t American midwestern. My favorite food growing up was hot and sour soup from the Chinese place.
I remember artichokes, blue cheese, capers, fattoush, and umeboshi plum vinegar being revelations to me the first time I had them! I got really into cooking for a while too.
Anonymous says
I thought I was a picky eater as a kid because I hated the dry, bland food my mom served for dinner. A typical dinner was an unseasoned pork chop cooked to leather, a baked potato with only butter, and microwaved frozen corn. We almost never ate out, and when we did it was Carl’s Jr or Sizzler. When I got to college I realized that I loved to eat all sorts of food. At first I felt guilty about enjoying “fancy” or spicy foods because my parents had drilled it into us kids that only snobs eat food with sauce and flavor and fresh vegetables. When I got my first apartment it was a huge act of rebellion to stock a spice rack. I still feel a little crazy for having five kinds of hot sauce in my fridge.
HSAL says
We’ve had a meal train bringing food for the last month, and my kids are so burnt out on other people’s cooking and “different” meals (mixed in with pizza, which is always well-received). Last night a friend brought them Happy Meals and they literally CHEERED in the entryway.
Anon says
Aw, that’s so thoughtful of your friend. What a nice moment in a terrible time.
Mary Moo Cow says
Aww! I love this mental image. Sometimes just give the people what they want.
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
This is beautiful. :)
Anonymous says
Ha, my picky kid complains that chick fil a is boring and regularly demands all manner of curries.
I absolutely hate the question “what’s for dinner”? It’s like they ask it just so they have something to complain about.
anon says
I saw a great tip somewhere on the “what’s for dinner?” question. (maybe it was Dinner a Love Story). I always say that I don’t know yet, even if I’m already working on making it. More time to think about it just gives the kid more time to complain about it.
anonM says
Glad we are not alone in this. As a kid we rarely went out to eat, so when my kids complain about “having” to go to a restaurant I want to lose it. This is a good reminder that for kids, the grass is always greener and it is certainly not just about my cooking!
TheElms says
We just started giving it to DD 4.5 because despite ending bedtime at 8 or 8:15pm she wasn’t falling asleep until 9-10pm (sometimes later) and was a wreck the next morning. She also has a provisional ADHD diagnosis – provisional because the neuropsych we saw prefers not to make a formal diagnosis until after age 5- but practically we are proceeding as though she has ADHD. My understanding is that there is some research that suggests people (kids and adults) with ADHD either produce less melatonin or produce it later in the evening.
Since adding melatonin, which our ped and neuropsych support, its been pretty great. DD is asleep at 8pm or latest 8:15pm now (after a couple nights of adjustment) and much more content in the morning. Also we’ve seen a noticeable decline in explosive outbursts which is fantastic for making our home a more pleasant space for the whole family.
In making this decision, I definitely decided to solve the problem I have now and not worry too much about future problems. I don’t love that as a problem solving strategy though.
TheElms says
Oops threading fail, sorry! For the melatonin thread clearly.
anon says
Curious to hear what gifted and talented programs look like for your elementary age kids? My kid is being evaluated for it, but it sounds like (from talking to her teacher) they just do some alternative work/learning throughout their regular school learning in their regular classrooms. I was a GT kid and we did the full day out of our regular classes in our own GT class with our own GT teacher. Is the in-class GT really beneficial? I enjoyed my GT classes, mostly because it was a way to focus and work with a group of kids that were pretty engaged with our teacher (who we all loved). Anyway, any experiences to share?
Anon says
My third grader is just starting, and they will get pulled from class for a special GT class. I have no idea yet how frequently or how long. And they work on a research project/deep dive area of interest.
While GT officially starts in third grade, they do pull out some first and second graders for a special “enrichment class” once a week. They do a similar sort of project (my son learned about endangered species and made a poster about how to “Save the Whales!” last year).
I realize this isn’t very helpful since I have no details, but curious to see responses. When I was in elementary school, once a week we took a bus to another elementary and had a town-wide GT class for our grade, for probably a couple hours. We had five different topic areas we learned about during the year, and had to do a presentation on one at the end (things like Marine Biology, Mayan Civilization, the Oregon Trail, Archeology – super varied!)
Anonymous for this says
My child’s elementary school doesn’t have a gifted and talented program, so they skipped her a grade. Every school seems to have their own way to accommodate, if they are willing to do so in the first place. A lot of schools just don’t have the bandwidth to do very much.
Previously, she had in-class differentiation. It was better than nothing. I watch for her happiness first, then academics second. As long as she is happy and not complaining about boredom, I am okay with supplementing her interests outside of school. School is going to become hard for just about everyone in middle or high school, so I am hoping that we just enjoy these years.
Anonymous says
I have a kid who skipped a grade and received no differentiation. The problem with waiting until high school for school to get difficult is that they haven’t developed any study skills or perseverance. Some kids have to work at learning to read or understanding arithmetic, so when they get to the material that’s actually challenging they know how to attack it. If you learned to read by osmosis and intuitively understood arithmetic and elementary algebra without having to wrestle with the concepts at all, you are going to fall apart when *gasp* you actually have to try to figure something out. Being bored to tears for the first 8-10 years of school also turns kids off to academics and it’s really hard to rekindle the love of learning after that.
Anonymous says
Our district puts about five gifted kids in a “cluster” in a regular classroom. They purposely avoid larger groupings because they want to avoid anything that resembles tracking or differentiation. The whole class gets push-in enrichment with a G/T resource teacher for an hour a week. It is totally worthless—stuff like building leprechaun traps but they are basically just decorating cardboard boxes and not trying to solve a problem or learning about engineering. They don’t differentiate instruction until high school, not even in reading or math. If I could do it over I’d have moved to the next county where there are gifted magnet schools starting in third grade.
Anon says
every elementary school in our district, with the exception of 1, does not put the GT kids in separate classes. that seems to be the trend currently in education.
Anonymous says
As a former “exceptionally gifted” kid and the current parent of one, I firmly believe that full-time G/T programs are the only way to ensure an appropriate education for gifted kids. I have personally experienced both magnet schools and in-classroom differentiation and there is just no comparison. Sadly no magnet programs were available to my child, and it has caused irreparable harm.
FVNC says
My kids’ district offers differentiated learning at four levels (Level 1-4) in all schools, as well as having certain designated “centers” where a majority of kids grades 3-6 are in full day (Level 4) differentiated learning classes. We happened to buy a house districted for a center school, and my daughter tested into Level 4, so she is in full day differentiated learning. At her school, there are three or four of these full time “advanced” classes per grade, and one or two non-advanced. As far as I can tell, the math is one grade level above (so, she’s doing sixth grade math in 5th grade), and they do some higher level language arts concepts, but generally it’s really just the math that seems advanced. It’s definitely challenging for her; she really has to study to “get” the material, which I think will set her up well for higher grades. I’m not sure my son will qualify, and that’s fine with me — the non-advanced classes are significantly smaller (e.g., 22 versus 28-30 students) so that alone seems like a pretty huge advantage. One of our friends has a son in fourth grade who is in a non-advanced class and they worried he’d feel ostracized from his former classmates in the full-time differentiation, but it’s been fine so far.
anon says
Sorry to ask a dumb question, but what does “differentiated learning” mean?
Anonymous says
Tracking.
anon mom says
Are you in Fairfax County? I’ve been trying to understand their program as we consider a move. Full time differentiation seems like a great option.
FVNC says
Late to respond, but yes. We’ve only been in the county for a year and a half, but it’s been a good experience so far. If you have an email you’re willing to post, I’m happy to discuss.
Schools says
No GT program in our public elementary school district in Westchester NY. I would assume there’s some tracking in Hugh School – unsure how Middle School handles it. Still 2 yrs away from that.
This is pretty much how my own suburban school district handled it and while I would have welcomed enrichment opportunities, I did fine.
Anon says
Interesting. Do you think it’s politics (everyone in Westchester thinks their kid is gifted), or that the quality of education in your school is high caliber already, or something different? We recently moved from Westchester, but our district was one of the “worse”, most diverse ones, and there was a dedicated gifted program. Same, now that we live in a city in Fairfield County, we have a gifted program (but our schools are also ranked among the “worst” for Fairfield County).
Anonymous says
I have observed that both conservatives and very liberal people are opposed to gifted education, conservatives because they are anti-intellectual and lefties because they have distorted views of what egalitarianism is. In a more moderate to slightly liberal, not overly wealthy, area, you will have more support for gifted education.
Anon says
I live in a very light blue city, and our district is not super wealthy, and we don’t have a separate gifted program for elementary school. There is tracking beginning in middle school (sixth grade).
Schools says
Coming back to this. I think part of it is just how small the districts are here. It’s far harder to differentiate at this scale. And classrooms are already pretty small and well resourced. I know some parents who end up sending their kids to private school instead. I did end up homeschooling in COVID so feel for confident about out of school enrichment as needed.
Anonymous says
Gifted education is not just about enrichment. Gifted kids need the entire curriculum to be taught at a faster pace and in more depth.
Anon says
True. Most gifted programs are really aimed at “very smart kids”. A handful may have some neurodivergence and be actually gifted, but the criteria is often around standardized test scores or being in the top X% of your class. I don’t think many public school districts have funds for a whole special curriculum for the type of “gifted” kids you’re talking about (although it is a kind of special need). The onus in that case seems to be on the parents, to find supplemental opportunities or to homeschool
Anonymous says
It can be done if the school district cares enough. If you evaluated every child in a smallish district with 1,000 kids per grade, you would identify 20 kids per grade with an IQ of 130, which is enough to constitute a class. You could also create consortia of smaller school districts to share magnet programs. Larger districts like LAUSD have enough students to create separate programs for kids with IQs above 145, although in that particular case access to testing is a huge problem.
Giftedness is a special need and gifted kids are just as entitled to a free and appropriate public education as disabled kids are. I have a gifted child who has suffered greatly in public schools. We provide enrichment outside of school, but it’s not enough. Her personality is not suited to homeschooling, I need to work, and I am opposed to home-schooling because it does not generally produce kids who are prepared for college and adult life. A well-meaning professional suggested that the best solution would be for us to spend upwards of $45,000 a year for her to attend a private school more than an hour from our home. I just don’t have that kind of time or money. My husband is unwilling to move to a state with better public schools because his family is here and the cost of living is low, and he was just a bright kid so he doesn’t r truly understand our daughter’s needs. He thinks she should just build a fusion reactor in the garage like a kid he read about in the news, and then she’ll be happy.
Anon says
It’s obviously okay not to home school, but the idea that home schooling does not generally produce kids who are prepared for college and adult life is a myth (there are reasons it took off, one of which is that families with autistic children often have to home school since school isn’t a great environment for autistic kids; another reason is that some families were religious extremists or involved in counter cultural cults). People can’t just spot the people who were home schooled in college or or adult life unless they have something more going on.
I feel like a hiring an instructor could be a better and cheaper solution than a private school an hour away! Or even a nanny + ability appropriate online instruction and educational outings.
Anon says
I’m just laughing at the idea that 1,000 kids is a small district. :) Maybe for those of you in big cities, but my childhood district was 350/grade and my kid’s district is <200/grade. 1,000+ is huge to me!
Anon says
I don’t deny that a gifted child *should* ideally be given an appropriately challenging education, but I still don’t think it’s really feasible in most places where every budget season is excruciating. And let’s be honest, when talking about the 3% of students on the other end of the spectrum (profoundly learning disabled), I don’t think they are provided with a truly tailored, appropriate education either. Schools add in some supports to check the boxes, but unless you are the mainstream kid it can be hard to get exactly what you need
Anonymous says
The thing is that gifted education doesn’t have to cost much extra. It’s basically any necessary bussing and some specialized continuing education for teachers. It’s not like special ed where you need a lot of additional staff in the classroom. You just teach differently. You might use different textbooks, but you have to buy textbooks anyway.
Anonymous says
Anecdotally, I think gifted services tend to be more robust in less-affluent schools where the attitude is “let’s give these kids a fighting chance” and less prevalent in wealthy suburban districts where the attitude is “all kids are gifted!”
Anon says
Same as you. As a kid I was pulled out of class beginning in kindergarten for special G&T class a couple hours a week. My kid’s school does not have a separate pullout program, and does enrichment in the classroom. So far it seems pretty reasonable to me. My kid’s school seems to have the average student working on a much higher level than in my elementary school, and the teachers seem to do a better job with in-class differentiation. I enjoyed my pullout program, which focused on enrichment not acceleration (e.g., we did creative things like “design your own country”, not advanced math) but I don’t think it was necessary from an academic perspective, and I think I would have gone into the accelerated math and honors science/language arts track in sixth grade with or without the pull-out program.
As a former “highly gifted kid,” I’m not convinced that challenging academic work in K-5 is the best approach, even for the most gifted kids. I think it’s too easy to burnout on school and peak in high school or college, if not before. I would not put my kids in a gifted magnet even if one was available to us. It’s important for kids to learn perseverance and hard work, but that can come from extracurriculars where they aren’t naturally as talented as they are academically. Learning a second language is also great for gifted kids.
OP says
Thanks for this experience, it was very helpful. My pull out program focused on enrichment, too, and I did enjoy it but I wouldn’t say it pushed me in a hard skills way. I think I got a lot out of being in a creative focused environment with other kids who enjoyed the same, but I wish it had focused as much on discipline (developing good study habits, for example), as creative joy and curiosity. That’s why I’m curious to learn about different, current models (I was in 3rd grade in the late 80s, and I haven’t kept up with GT program development!). But I’d say the biggest benefit was that it tracked me to go directly into GT math and English in middle school, which was challenging and accelerated. I don’t think I would have gone into those classes otherwise.
anonamommy says
In the Gifted literature (of which there is a surprising amount!), there are a lot of distinctions depending on the particular gifted traits of the child. Here’s a very rough breakdown:
https://eleanormunsonphd.com/2011/01/the-five-levels-of-giftedness/
My child tested at profoundly gifted (plus a neurodivergent diagnosis), and I can tell you that it is its own educational can of worms as a kid who is developmentally delayed, full of administrative processes and lack of resources. The school systems just are not set up to support these kind of different learners, with very few exceptions.
Anonymous says
This is a more standard schema with higher IQ ranges for the levels of giftedness. https://giftedconsortium.com/high-exceptional-profound-giftedness/
A kid in the 99.9th percentile (IQ >=145) is as different from a kid in the 115-130 range, which is what gifted programs are designed for, as a kid in the 115-130 range is from one with mild to moderate developmental delays. Advocating for a kid with this level of giftedness is even more difficult when they are twice-exceptional, with ADHD or autism or a learning disability. The school will either argue that they aren’t really that smart because the disability is making them perform below potential, or that they are too smart to have a disability so they must just be lazy. It’s maddening.
Anonymous says
+ 1 on the extra languages. I was bored AF in English only elementary but the G/T options in my district were not great. My kids are currently learning to read/write in 3 languages (French/English at school and 3rd language extracurricular), they are much more engaged at excited about learning than I was at that age and my oldest in 7th grade has better study habits than I did in high school.
Anonymous says
Language immersion would be an awesome choice for a gifted kid if available!
More Sleep Would Be Nice says
My kid’s district starts with GT in K. If they test, they can go to a gifted magnet or get enrichment in their non-gifted school’s class. DS #1, like his Mom, while above average to very smart in most domains, did not score high enough on the exam. When I looked at his scores, he actually scored the worst in similar areas that always kept me from qualifying as a GT student. My brother, however, breezed through the exam and was in GT from elementary. :)
DS #1 re-took it this year (you can retake annually, I think). We’ll see.
Most of my educator friends stress that testing of this sort before middle school isn’t the best idea. I also agree that there is a difference between “gifted” and just an advanced, academic kid, and that the GT programs tend to cater to the latter.
Anon says
Our school has groupings within the normal classroom setting as well as pull-out enrichment classes for an hour twice a week. There are two dedicated GT teachers for kids third grade and up. Enrichment classes are both for ‘gifted’ and also for kids who consistently score 90% or higher on standard tests (my kid is in the latter group – bright kid with involved parents, not a genius). I like that the enrichment classes have a little homework – it’s otherwise a mostly homework-free elementary environment, and my kid could use the little extra bit of challenge / higher expectations.
Boston Legal Eagle says
Our district (relatively wealthy, though not the wealthiest Boston burbs) does not have a separate gifted program in elementary. In MS, I think there might be some enrichment classes.
Anonymous says
Our district consolidates the G&T kids in a single class, pulling from 3 or 4 elementary schools. My kids aren’t in the program, but if they were, they’d attend a different school than our neighborhood elementary. Still nearby, and there’s a bus from/to our home elementary school’s before & after care. A couple of my son’s friends are in it, and I assume it’s accelerated and then there’s enrichment on top of that, but I’m not sure.
When I was a kid, the G&T program bussed us one day a week to a different school for a full-day G&T class. We’d go to school as usual in the morning, and after the bell rang, we’d go hop back on the bus. I loved it, it had nothing to do with the regular curriculum, we just had a few special topics we explored as a class each year + did independent study on a self-selected topic, culminating in a written report and class presentation at the end of each semester. And did a whole bunch of logic games and other brain teaser stuff. I don’t remember much about my regular elementary school classes, but I can tell you all about what we did in “Quest” from 3rd-6th grade, and my mom probably still has my independent study reports somewhere. I bet they’re a trip! Topics: Hawaii; dogsledding; extraterrestrials; the violin; and Bach, Beethoven & Mozart.
Anon says
Any out of the box gift ideas for kids ages 3-6? I have to shop for several friends’ kids but I feel like these kids have everything, and I’ve gotten them a lot of dolls/stuffies, arts & crafts stuff and Lego sets over the years.
Anonymous says
Subscription to High Five magazine (a version of Highlights aimed at kids that age). My kids love it, keep all the back issues, and read them a lot. Plus it’s a like a present every month.
Anon says
Do you think this is a good gift for advanced readers? I’ve always avoided books and magazines because they’re advanced readers and my similar age kids are average so I’m not sure what’s suitable.
Anonymous says
I have an advanced reader who enjoys magazines even if they are somewhat below her reading level. Just don’t get something that’s on the “I can read” level, which High Five is. I’d recommend something like National Geographic Kids (not the Little Kids version).
Anon says
What about sports or active stuff? Mini bowling set, pool toys, mini trampoline, light up frisbee, jump rope, beginner pogo stick …
Anon says
Slippers! Kids love them and they are so cute. Color changing umbrellas are also a great and quasi-practical gift. Could throw in a fun snack and some bath paint or bath bombs to make a practical gift more exciting for the kid.
anonn says
walkie talkies, sleeping bag, play tent, kite