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Anon says
Would you put your four-year old in a campaign shirt that supports a political candidate? We live in a mostly blue area and the shirt would be for Harris-Walz. I am Indian and caught up in the DNC excitement, and bought a bunch of campaign merch for myself. But I am having a moral dilemma about imposing my political views on my young child.
AwayEmily says
This is such an interesting question! I honestly am not sure where I land on it so very much looking forward to hearing others’ thoughts.
Anon says
Agreed! I love this question and really respect OP for thinking deeply about this!
Betty says
Yes, absolutely. Especially if you are Indian. That’s so exciting.
We are a gay family and our kids have Harris shirts.
Betty says
I’m guessing that the people responding NO are mostly (all?) straight white middle class people. therefore the election does not have personal stakes for them like it does for our family. They have the luxury of being above it all and no matter the outcome their lives – and that of their children – will not meaningfully change.
I think teaching my child that everyone deserves respect, including our family and that you need to work to preserve/grow those rights is important.
We talk about these things in an age appropriate way, but I think that’s important to
talk to your children about about your values from an early age. I see this election as a very stark choice in that regard.
Anon says
I’m a POC in a blue city, red state and wouldn’t do it. I’m also not a big fan of political merch for myself, tbh, even though I’m very open with my political views among friends and acquaintances.
We definitely talk about the election at home from an early age, but using a kid as a billboard when they don’t fully understand the meaning and can’t consent to it feels wrong to me. It’s not about whether you have a personal stake. And honestly ALL women in the US have a stake in the election!! Acting like white women have nothing to lose with this election is a weird take to me. Not that it matters for merch and I support anyone wearing a Harris shirt who wants to, but I think Indian-American men will be much better off under Trump than white women, especially white women in red states that have or will restrict abortion.
Cb says
I’m not US based (although I still have a vote there) and we talk about this stuff a decent amount. I work in politics (academic). It feels important, especially as a mum to a boy? There are some gross stickers in our public loos, and my son has seen me taking them down and we talked about why… and I’ve explained why I’m not into Harry Potter the way he and his dad are, etc.
Anon says
Maybe you have a profoundly gifted 4 year old, but I’ve never met a 4 year old who has any meaningful awareness of politics. I’d guess we’re more politically active and engaged than 95% of American families (we are white, but Jewish, and do a lot of canvassing on behalf of both local and national Democrats) and my bright kid had essentially zero understanding of anything political at age 4. It really wasn’t until 5.5-6 that she started to “get it” and to be able to really discuss issues and understand why our family supports Democrats. Before that age I wouldn’t have been comfortable putting her in any campaign slogan because she wouldn’t understand what she was wearing (and even at this age, we only did it at her request – we didn’t push it on her).
It’s not that I’m above it all and don’t care about the outcome – and that’s a pretty offensive thing to say to someone who is donating and campaigning their heart out for Harris and down ballot Dems – but I don’t want my kid in a message that she can’t meaningfully consent to.
Anon says
yah, I have a politically vulnerable child, and the election this year is very, very, very high stakes for us. My politically vulnerable kid is 13, but has a 4 year old younger brother. We talk politics a lot because whoever is elected (and the state we live in) will have a deep, significant impact on our family. We also know a lot of very lucky individuals who have moved to our state to avoid horrific policies in other states, so we talk about it a lot. Politically vulnerable child is t r a n s, so stakes are higher now than ever. yeay pride families and families who support pride :)
Anon says
Hard disagree. Being straight, white, and middle class doesn’t protect women from the loss of abortion rights (and no, “they can just go out of state” isn’t proof that rights exist – it’s proof that rights have been violated). Many people, including me, also want kids to be kids and not take on the stress of worrying about adult issues. They don’t yet have the brain capacity and depth of understanding for that, but they know enough to get anxious.
Anon says
Yeah and also “go out of state” doesn’t work in a medical emergency.
Anonymous says
What a ridiculously false and demeaning narrative.
Anon says
I think it’s demeaning too. And obviously false.
Anon says
I swear the trolls from the main page have recently discovered the Moms page. I don’t know anyone who actually holds these sorts of racist views (and this is a racist view — all straight white people aren’t capable of caring about this election? Seriously?) in real life, and I am in the bluest city in a deep blue state.
Anon says
She was saying IF you don’t put your kid in campaign merch you’re probably a white woman who doesn’t care about the election. To be clear, I emphatically disagree. Whether or not you put your kid in campagin merch has very little to do with how much you care about the election, or your skin color for that matter. But it’s not the same thing as saying no white people care about the election.
and this is a longtime regular poster here, not a tr 0 l l. It’s fine to call anyone, including regular posters, out, but I’m tired of people using that word.
Anonymous says
She’s saying that the election doesn’t affect white women, which is incredibly racist.
Anon says
Oh, troll was the most generous word I could think of! It implies maybe she doesn’t actually hold this awful view.
Anon says
I would not
Anon says
At 4, no, because they don’t really know what they’re wearing. My 6 year old asked for Harris merchandise and we got it for her. Of course at this age her views are still very much shaped by ours so it’s not a fully independent thought, but it still feels different to me than putting a shirt on a kid who doesn’t understand what it means.
Anon says
No. I think using a kid, who is too young to understand any of this, as a poster board for your own beliefs is tacky and inappropriate. (I’m sure you would, too, if you saw someone doing it with a candidate you oppose.)
Anon says
This. Saw some young girls in the opposite merch and was shocked and horrified tbh
Anonymous says
I wouldn’t. But I didn’t put my kids in shirts with any kind of message on them when they were that young, even something non-controversial. I’m just not a huge fan of preschool age kids as billboards.
Anonymous says
I would not. I think the only way I’d consider putting my child in campaign merch (or myself if we’re being honest, which is shaping my views) is if it were a more local election and the candidate was a family member or very close friend.
Cb says
Oof, that’s a tricky one. I think maybe not at 4 since they really don’t have a grasp at all? I might go with a bit more of a peace, love, equality vibe. Although my kid did spend a decent amount of time on the picket line with me when he was a baby with a “I wasn’t born yesterday…” sign taped to his sling. So maybe that’s hypocritical of me.
We had an election in July and my son (7) thought it was fun to go to the farmer’s market and get merch from each of the campaign stalls (multiparty system so we’ve got options). I run a political campaign archive as part of my job, so he felt like he was helping mummy with her work. The kid was rolling in fidget spinners and stickers. I thought he’d vote for whoever had the best swag, but he did ask questions about what party’s position was. I also explained why we didn’t talk to the one fringe party, even though they had really nice flags and chocolate.
Anon says
If you’re hesitant to put them in campaign apparel, maybe something adjacent would help? My kid really likes her Ruth Bader Ginsburg shirt (there are a bunch of them on Etsy) and knows how to say “smash the patriarchy” when people ask her about it.
Anonymous says
RBG destroyed her own legacy by refusing to cede her seat during Obama’s presidency. Please educate your daughter about this.
Anonymous says
+1. I got rid of my RBG coffee mug.
Anon says
Would it even have mattered? I doubt they would have let Obama nominate anyone.
Anonymous says
If she’d resigned early enough in his term they would have had to let someone through.
Anon says
Would they? I think they were always going to obstruct all the way and the timing was just an excuse. Scalia died nearly a year before the next inauguration. And anyway we didn’t know about the obstruction until it happened, so she would have had no reason to resign early. I just don’t really get the hate for RBG when the result would have been exactly the same if she’d resigned in the last year or two of Obama’s second term.
Anon says
No way.
Boston Legal Eagle says
I plan to put a yard sign in front of our house and take pics with my kids in front of it, promoting the candidates and also encouraging people to register to vote and actually vote. I value teaching my kids about civic engagement and standing up for what you believe in. Also, I’m white, in a “traditional” relationship, my kids are white boys, but this election is about so much more than generic pro-business Rep v. pro-social Democrat.
AwayEmily says
One reason I’m struggling with this is that I have in general adopted a “don’t use your young kids as billboards” approach. But I also teach political science, and one thing we know from the research is that getting kids interested in politics — taking them with you to vote, talking about issues, reading the newspaper in front of them — is SUCH a huge predictor of political involvement down the road. And t-shirts for candidates (either side!) are one way of doing that. It’s a really good thing that people care, regardless of whether I agree with their views. Anyway, I’m still really not sure where I stand! I can see both sides of the argument.
Cb says
Fellow political science prof here… waves! I was so disappointed I didn’t get to vote in person this year (first general election in the UK where I was eligible). I was really looking forward to taking my son, but alas, a snap election coincided with our holidays so I was a postal vote.
My personal (and very small scale) crusade is going into the 6th grade classes at my son’s school and doing chats about what politics is and how it impacts them. They really seem to get it and now point me out as “that politics lady…” in town. I’m always so demoralised when I have a bunch of freshers and ask them how they engage in politics/what issues they care about and they just shrug?
Anon says
yes, i find it very upsetting all of the kids at the pro Palestinian protests holding signs/wearing stuff and the kids have no clue what they are representing. or kids at like pro life holding things about killing babies. i’m not sure if i’ve ever worn or purchased campaign gear, but i do recall going to vote with my parents and we’ve taken our kids with us to vote. i think i’d get my kids a sticker to put in the house or a button or something.
Anon says
Yes – I have never had campaign merch or signs, and I don’t talk policies or politics with my kids but we do talk about voting, I bring them with me to vote (and let them press the button I tell them to press, make sure they get a sticker) and talk about being civically engaged.
avocado says
Yes to bringing your kids to vote! Since my daughter was a tiny baby I’ve always brought her with me to vote early in the morning. Afterwards we would go out to breakfast wearing our “I voted” and “future voter” stickers. She is disappointed that she won’t get to vote in this presidential election because she won’t be quite 18 yet.
Anon says
This is fascinating! I’ve always purposefully, inconveniently brought my kids with me to vote because it feels like an important thing to teach them, but I didn’t know there was actual data behind it!
Spirograph says
Same here! My kids love the stickers, engage with the poll workers (if it’s not busy) and ask tons of questions that get us talking about democracy and citizen responsibilities. I’ve always just thought it was cute and a good experience for them, and fun/interesting for me to hear their take.
Plus the polling place is a nice walk from our house. :)
Anonymous says
I wouldn’t. I would take my 4-year old to a political event (I have before – not a campaign event, it was for a state-level issue, but we’re in a blue state where national candidates don’t really visit), just last week we talked in an age-appropriate way about what an election is and why we’re voting for Kamala Harris, and I plan to take him to vote, so we definitely do not avoid the topic, but something about a campaign shirt makes me uncomfortable. I guess to me there’s a distinction between teaching and educating about politics and issues and using his clothing to make a statement about what are, still, my own views, even if I strongly believe that they are what are best for him and his future. Especially when he is not even able to read the shirt, you know?
I should say, though – maybe I would feel differently if I was Indian and it was a matter of community pride, so I’m walking my own statement back a little now! We are POC, but not Indian (but very excited to vote for Harris/Walz).
Anonymous says
I put my kids in pride merch when we went to a local pride parade. With my 5-year-old, we talked about how there are lots of different ways to make a family and that everyone should be able to be open about who they love. So I feel like he understood the basic message of the shirt he was wearing. We’ve also talked a little bit about the people running for President and what kind of policies they support, like free school lunch for all children and things like that, so I think he’s not totally unaware of the Harris platform. With a specific Harris-Walz shirt, I’d probably be fine with it if we were going somewhere similarly message-oriented, like a rally or a discussion at our shul, but would avoid for everyday outings like to school or the grocery store.
Anonymous says
Yes for around the house/family/friends but I wouldn’t for situations where I’m not around in case someone reacts given the current environment. 4 is also old enough to talk about what the shirt means. My kids always go with me when I vote in every election at every level so they are used to the idea of picking and supporting the leaders we want.
anon says
absolutely not.
anon says
Nope
Anon says
No, I would not. I would wear one myself and let my child be a child.
anon says
No. You can involve your child in the political process without turning him or her into a billboard for something they don’t understand yet. I’d feel differently about an older child, but a 4-year-old? Nope. That’s more about you than your kid.
Anon says
100%. There are so many good ways to get young kids involved in the political process without turning them into a walking billboard.
Anon says
+1000 to “this is more about you than your kid.”
kindergartners for Regan says
no. my dad was very politically involved and used us as well, going to meetings, door to door for Regan, listening to Limbaugh everyday. it made me judgmental of my peers in ways I didn’t understand, fearful of the other side. Like I thought the world would end if Gore won. reflecting back I am now very careful with how we talk about politics around our kids, we talk about issues in front of them, but less about parties or candidates, things will change as they get older of course. I think about the ick in my stomach I feel seeing kids in maga hats and don’t want people feeling that ick toward my kids either. I don’t want grade school kids fighting about the presidential elections. t-shirts don’t change votes guys.
Anonymous says
NEVER. Stuff like this drives me insane.
Anon says
Absolutely not, but I also wouldn’t put myself in one, haha. Humans aren’t billboards.
GCA says
I wouldn’t, mostly because a child that age doesn’t understand what it means, but I also wouldn’t judge someone who opts to do it. Maybe it’s part of a larger conversation they are starting to have with their kid about what it means to vote, or about what they believe is right for the community and country.
In most contexts I wouldn’t go about my day in a campaign shirt myself, and here are my reasons. I’m a POC *and* a non-citizen (my very small home country doesn’t permit dual citizenship; my vote goes farther there, so you could say I am still not a US citizen precisely *because* I believe in the American democratic ideal. I once put a pink hat on my American toddler and took him to the Women’s March, which he slept clean through anyway.) Generally in my day-to-day life (even in a blue city in a purple state) I would rather hear others’ views first before sharing my own, and a campaign shirt is a emphatic statement that risks shutting down any chance I have to begin that kind of curiosity-driven dialogue. At the same time, I think there are some contexts where family matching campaign clothing is totally fine, even desirable. Election night watch party? Fine! Meet the candidate event? Great! Taking your kid to the polls? Perfect!
Anon says
I agree with this, but just a head’s up that in many states you can’t wear campaign attire to the polls. You won’t be allowed to vote unless you have something to put on over that fully covers the campaign image/words. So that’s definitely not the right place for campaign attire! But election night party and meet the candidate, 100%.
GCA says
Good point! Check the electioneering rules in your state! Better safe than sorry :)
Anonymous says
No, I would absolutely not. I find it really irksome when adults use their kids as vehicles for an adult message.
Anon says
We’re in MN. My 10 year old very much wants some Walz themed merchandise because he follows politics a little bit, hates Trump, and moreover he’s met Walz (happy to confirm he’s as wonderful in person as he appears on t.v.) and has some personal interest in seeing the Harris / Walz ticket win.
Don’t think I’d buy stuff for our youngest (she’s five). On a recent vacation to a red state I saw a kid about her age in a shirt that said ‘Joe and the Ho have got to go” and it was super gross.
Anon says
Well “‘Joe and the Ho have got to go” is much, much worse. Regardless of how you feel about candidate shirts, I think most decent people wouldn’t put their kid in any kind of vulgarity, especially not vulgarity directed at another person. That’s just beyond disgusting regardless of political affiliation.
Anonymous says
Yes. I impose all my views on them it is called parenting? Teaching them my values?
anon says
I posted a few weeks about adhd meds in kindergarten and many of you had thoughtful responses. Also, how do I search comments again to find this post? I’d like to find this and save it, but I didn’t know which day I posted that.
Well, my son had day 5 of kindergarten yesterday and at the very end of the day, someone said something he didnt like to him and he scratched them. He was so remorseful when he was home saying everyone will think hes a bad kid and will his parents say I’m bad. I explained the difference between doing a bad thing and being a bad kid, but its heartbreaking both for the victim and him because he knows thats an unacceptable reaction. It’s about 16 kids and 1 teacher, so pretty good for public but its mostly boys, which is a challenge. The school day is 740 to 3 and he’s not been in a school setting that long, so I know his reserves are very low at the end of the day. We role play, we discuss, we took away screen time yesterday but we emphasize that we love him and he’s good despite doing something bad. I just dont even know what to do other than wait or medicate to help him have more impulse control. He just turned 5 in may so we have a long time to wait until 6 when many of the meds are available to us.
This type of thing has happened throughout preschool and summer camps to varying degrees of severity to where he cant keep his hands and feet to himself. He’s cooperative and remorseful but he cant seem to control it. Does anyone have suggestions? I don’t have other issues with him like he gets himself ready, he’s rarely explosive at home unless very tired or hungry and I can remedy that quickly, but it’s clearly harder for teachers in a group setting than for me. I wish my kid was the type that was an angel at school and would save the worst for me.
I’m just also riddled with anxiety every time something like this happens. Maybe I need to seek some therapy or meds for myself because I spend an inordinate amount of time wondering if i’m going to get a call from the school, if he’s going to make friends, if the teachers are able to see his good traits, if his entire childhood will be managing his various adhd symptoms etc. It feels big because i don’t know anyone IRL that struggles like this.
Anon says
I know redshirting is very controversial here but I would consider it in with a May birthday and a boy with these kinds of behavioral issues. My daughter had a rambunctious pre-K friend with a May birthday who was redshirted and even though redshirting didn’t seem strictly necessary to me as an outsider, I think it was the right call and he really thrived in K when he went just after turning 6. Admittedly our cutoff and our school year are both very early (August 1) with no option to send kids before they turn 5, so May is less out of the norm age-wise than it would be with, say, an October cutoff. But it is really pretty common here for boys with May birthdays to go to K at 6 and I’m wondering if that might be the right choice for your son. I’d talk to the teacher and see what they say.
OP says
I posted about this before and people here said that redshirting doesnt help ADHD kids when they are bored as well. I guess I have to wait and see with what kind of frequency these issues happen, but I’m not sure that they wouldn’t have happened at 6 either. One of our friends redshirted and her son was still having these issues, I am doubting myself now. I guess I could look into a private kindergarten program and then have him come back to public in a few years if appropriate..
Anon says
Hmm not sure I agree with that. I think he’s unlikely to be bored in K unless he’s off the charts gifted, which is kind of a separate issue. My kid tests in the 98-99th percentile on standardized tests, is old for her grade (not redshirted, just close to cutoff) and hasn’t been bored at all throughout early elementary. I think there’s enough play and what not at that age, that even the kids who are really smart are not usually too bored. So much of K is really about social and emotional learning, not academics. I can see boredom being a bigger issue down the road, but academic tracking normally starts in upper elementary, and by the time kids are 10+ I doubt a few months of age will make a big impact on academic ability since it’s a much smaller amount of time relative to their total life.
Regardless it sounds like a really tough situation and I’m sorry you’re going through it. It sounds like you’re doing a really great job advocating for you son.
anon says
I think this depends a lot on your school’s capacity to differentiate across the classroom. My kids pick up new concepts quickly and have definitely been bored in K–they’re in a language immersion school which kept them occupied for the first month or two, but as soon as they knew the numbers 1-100, learning how to add 4 + 5 is still boring, even in a different language. Their teachers have been good, but with 25 kids in the class and a wide range of abilities, kids on the upper end are often bored.
That being said, ADHD does not mean gifted, so red-shirting in this case isn’t necessarily bad.
Anon says
That’s fair. I think our schools do a better job with differentiation than most. But boredom at least in early elementary doesn’t seem closely correlated with ADHD traits to me.
anon says
Redshirting would not help. I’m speaking as a mom to a 14-year-old with ADHD. He’s not suddenly going to snap out of those behaviors in one year’s time.
Anon says
Well if he can get meds at age 6, then going to school at that age might be a better experience. I wasn’t really saying the behavior was going to end abruptly without intervention (although I do think the passage of time helps lots of kids with ADHD traits) but if 5 is too young for meds and 6 isn’t, then it could make a big difference.
Anonymous says
As a parent I really resent the redshirting of aggressive, disruptive boys. Sending them a year later when they are bigger, more aggressive, more disruptive, and more bored just makes the problem worse for the rest of the class.
Anonymous says
I would not put him in private K unless it’s a specialty program for kids with needs like his. Any high-quality private school will already be full for this academic year. Private K at a preschool or day care may have spots, but I would avoid that if at all possible. My daughter attended private K at a day care out of necessity. It was a canned program consisting mostly of workbooks that would have been absolutely terrible for a kid who couldn’t sit still.
Anon says
Gently, it does seem like maybe some help for you would be in order here. Not only do you deserve to feel better and not so anxious, but your kid will pick up on your reactions and know how disappointed and stressed little incidents make you feel. I am almost positive there are coping mechanisms that could really help you with this. Even things like wishing he would save the worst for you – it’s OK to rely on other people to help with difficulties with your kids! You deserve help and support.
Anon says
I had a very young for grade kindergartener who was still learning to use her words in disputes at the beginning of K. She hit a kid that first week and went to the principal’s office. They worked with her and she continued to get better at behavior expectations over the first month or two, with continued progress over her first few years of school. I won’t say it was perfect or easy. She was very, very stressed at the behavior expectations (lots of tears, nightmares about school, bedwetting when she hadn’t wet the bed in years, and school refusal), but she was doing somewhat better by January. The kid that she hit that first week became one of her best buds and they are good friends as middle schoolers.
She’d gone to a well respected local preschool and had all the “right” experiences going into K to be ready. We didn’t have issues at home with hitting, but she was a very rigid kid. But in a new school, between being a bit language delayed in pragmatic situations, young for her grade, a naturally dominant personality and rigid, she was behind on meeting behavior expectations. She was also 4 yo and reading chapter books and very ahead on a lot of other things. Kids don’t always develop evenly. She’s in middle school now and has no labels other than being tagged as gifted.
Hopefully the school will work with your son so he can be successful. But know it isn’t your failure. Kids come a certain way and are still learning.
AwayEmily says
Two things: first, I think the year between 5 and 6 is SO HUGE in terms of developing self-control. My son was a totally different person the summer before vs. after kindergarten in terms of meltdowns/angry outbursts. So some of this might just happen on its own.
And second: other parents and teachers (at least, the good ones) do understand that your son is a good kid, and can see everything you’re doing for him. One of my daughter’s best friends has huge struggles with regulation — I saw him throw a rock at his dad once, and he has frequent moments of being out-of-control. But he’s also the kindest kid, hilarious, creative, and his parents are doing an incredible job of helping him figure out how to navigate things.
It will be okay. You’re a fantastic parent.
Anonymous says
This sounds pretty normal. Don’t stress. Kids don’t react well all the time. It’s not like he’s punching a kid and unremorseful. He scratched another kid and feels bad about it. You are in early early early days of kindergarten. It frequently takes at least a month or two for kids to adjust to the huge shift in routine.
I would really suggest therapy for you because it’s great to have that support in place. Parenting is hard and why not bring in all the support you can get. They can help you learn strategies to take care of yourself and to deal with tough parenting situations if they come up.
Hang in there. The transition to kindergarten is a huge change. But he’ll hit his groove and it will be June before you know it.
Anon says
There was a discussion not that long ago where a few commenters posted about disagreeing with the use of melatonin and ADHD meds (when not absolutely indicated) for treating energetic behavior in young boys. I’ve been thinking about that since and I have a follow up question – are you able to get your kids enough exercise and activity to actually get them to study and sleep at night without those things? It seems that the modern lifestyle is often not set up to encourage that – especially with set work and school policies affecting the whole family. How are you wrangling it? Do you allow screen time?
Boston Legal Eagle says
What age are you talking about? My older kid is 8 and is energetic and spirited and fits a lot of criteria of ADHD. No meds as of now, and he sleeps mostly fine – typically 8pm-6am. He runs around a lot at school, aftercare, and in our yard. I think ADHD meds can often lead to insomnia, so not sure if those would be used together? As for studying and getting enough sleep with an early ms/hs start time – that is a whole can of worms that affects all kids and I am not looking forward to it!
Anon says
I’m not sure of the ages of the kids those posters were referencing, unfortunately…school age I think?
Anon says
My high energy kid (girl though) has always been a naturally good sleeper, so we’ve never used melatonin regularly, just for jet lag and stuff like that. But I don’t get the pearl clutching about it. I have insomnia and have seen a bunch of endocrinologists and neurologists for other issues and they’ve all told me that while getting enough “natural” sleep is ideal, it’s not attainable for many people, and getting high quality sleep with melatonin is *much* better than not getting enough sleep or using other sleep aids that have more serious side effects or higher risks for things like dementia (antihistimines like Benadryl aren’t as benign as they seem, according to my doctors). They all have patients who’ve been on melatonin regularly for decades without complications. There are also some studies that it has anti-inflammatory and immune-boosting properties and anecdotally I’ve found it helps me recover from viruses and surgeries faster. Like any med, it can be abused or overdosed on. But I don’t see that as a reason to avoid it completely. Tylenol has killed some kids, but no one avoids it.
Anon says
I know big part of the concern is that melatonin is not regulated in the US and that the amounts that parents think they’re getting on the bottles vary wildly from what’s actually in the pills. Sometimes the pediatrician OKs a low dose and the kid is actually getting five times that.
Anon says
Doctors, including pediatricians, are aware that doses are variable and take that into account when they give you dosing guidelines. Our ped told us to start with 0.3 mg and even 10 times that is safe. I agree it’s an issue though and I wish it were more regulated.
Anonymous says
My general experience is that exercise doesn’t solve ADHD symptoms. I can have my early elementary-aged kids run the mile to the bus stop, run around at school recess, run the mile home from the bus stop, and have lots of gross motor play/no screen time after school and while they’ll be bouncing off the walls less than on a day they don’t get exercise and be more likely to sit calmly, they don’t have more impulse control or gain the ability to focus
Anonymous says
My 6th grade ADHD son is noticeably calmer and better able to focus during his travel sport season to the point that we have not (yet) needed to pursue medication. But even intense sports practice does not help with sleep. He has had tons of trouble falling asleep since he was about 2-3 years old (he actually slept pretty well as a baby!) and melatonin was a game changer when we started using it — with pediatrician blessing — in 1st grade. He takes a very low dose, and it consistently helps him fall asleep within 30 min. Without it, he’ll be up til 11pm or later, which is just… not setting him up for success the next day at school.
Anon says
i have twin girls in first grade. last year we couldn’t get the kids to bed until 9pm. their school day is 7:30-3, after school they’d have an activity or go to the playground for 1+ hours. so they were clearly exhausted. mornings were a disaster. the 6:30-9pm was a disaster. a pediatric sleep specialist suggested melatonin and it has changed our life. they are now asleep between 7:30-8. one is not a morning person, but it is infinitely better. i don’t love it and i try to not do it on weekends, but multiple doctors have told me not to worry about it
Anon says
I don’t personally judge you in any way – do what’s right for your family! But it’s just odd how widespread this is when most people didn’t even know melatonin existed in the 90s and 2000s. What did we all do before?
Anon says
can’t we say that about a lot of things? people used to not use car seats, we have new drugs that didn’t exist years ago, etc.
Anon says
Totally, but I don’t remember headlines about how kids weren’t sleeping and there was desperate need for a cure.
Anon says
There weren’t really headlines about how kids were dying in car accidents and something was desperately needed. People in the 70s didn’t see kids in cars without car seats as an issue. It was just an invention that came along that made things safer and better. I think you can say that about lots of things.
Anon says
There wasn’t a good solution and kids were more sleep-deprived. Just like people died from simple bacterial infections before penicillin, etc.
Anon says
I wonder if this is fully true, though. I know there are time-use surveys out there, although I’ve never looked at them for child sleep. Were kids really sleeping less in those years and are they sleeping more now?
Anon says
Kids were generally less scheduled in the 90s, so if they slept more then I suspect that’s the reason. But yes, I think getting kids “enough” sleep is much more of a focus among upper middle class parents now than it was then. When I was a kid parents were much less focused on the “right” bedtimes for school age kids. After about age 6 or so, I pretty much went to bed whenever I wanted to, and that was not uncommon.
anon says
When we realized our oldest was a high-energy child with probable ADHD, we saw that the standard modern lifestyle is not set up to permit what is actually healthy and normal for children, so we decided not to meet the expectations of a standard modern lifestyle.
I moved to a regional satellite office of my biglaw firm on an 80% schedule, my husband quit his job, we bought half an acre close to family and childhood friends and send our children to non-traditional schools blended with homeschool as each child needs. So we have time to get up early with them and get everyone a couple miles of walking/running before school starts, they have a short school day with three outdoor breaks and lots of movement in the classroom, and no homework until 7th grade so after school they can run around in the woods with their friends for hours, or do chores, music lessons and sports and still be home for a 6:00 family dinner and 7:30 bedtime. Screentime is for days where the weather is truly too horrible to be outside, and not within two hours of bedtime.
Anon says
+1 If the modern lifestyle means that we need to medicate normal child development, then the problem is the lifestyle and it needs to change. (I know some families have no other option, but speaking about people reading here we absolutely have choices about how we structure our lives.) I have three VERY energetic and low sleep needs boys, at least one of whom has ADHD. We are intentional about the activities we choose, have a lot of down time time at home, limit screen time (none during the week, certain timeframes on weekends) and deal with the late bedtimes they require even if it means less “peace” for me.
Anonymous says
ADHD that is severe enough to require medication is NOT normal child development. Giving ADHD meds to a kid who doesn’t actually have ADHD will not make them more compliant. This rhetoric is dangerous to kids who are struggling with unmedicated ADHD.
I am all for later bedtimes when that’s what kids need, though. I think a lot of the people insisting their kids go to bed at 6:30 or 7:30 would have better luck with a 9:00 bedtime.
Anon says
For school age kids who have to get up early some people have no choice but to try to get their kids on early bedtimes though. I don’t think people are doing it for funsies. I’m very grateful that our elementary school starts at 9 and we live three minutes by car/15 minutes on foot, but I know lots of schools start at 7:30 and people have to commute a half hour or more. That would be really really hard on my night owl but high sleep needs kid and we would definitely be exploring melatonin, etc. in that situation to get her enough sleep.
Anon 11:07 says
Oh absolutely, meds can be critical in that case (not yet for my son, but I’m not opposed). I was responding to the framing of the OP about giving meds that aren’t indicated to energetic kids. There is a huge overlap of “normal range of kid behavior” and “ADHD symptoms” in ages 3-6, so in that age range I do prefer to address lifestyle changes, and allow time for maturity, first.
Anonymous says
I think some kids actually get more sleep with a later bedtime, though. If the choice is between 7:30 bedtime + never fall asleep + up 10 times during the night and 9:00 bedtime + fall asleep + sleep all night, the latter option definitely results in more sleep.
Anon says
If kids can’t stay asleep after going to bed that early it’s a different story. But I would prefer a medicated 7 pm bedtime to a natural 9 pm for a kid who has to wake at 6 and needs lot of sleep. I guess I’m more pro-melatonin than most, but I think it’s pretty clear the risks of sleep deprivation vastly outweigh the risks of low dose melatonin.
Anon for this says
I tried everything I could. Activity before and after school. Miles of walking, biking, skiing, swimming. Fewer structured activities. More sports.
No food dyes, all food from scratch, prioritizing sleep, gentle consequences, major consequences , optimizing my parenting. And what made the biggest difference for kiddo? Meds. Do I think he’ll be on them forever? No. Do I think he would do better with a more challenging teacher? Yes.. or homeschooled.
I still do all the other stuff but meds helped him instantly. I want my kid to be happy… we had gotten to the point where he started to think he was a ‘bad kid’. That’s when we started meds.
SC says
+1. Also, there’s a difference between “energetic” and ADHD. My kid has ADHD and is very impulsive, to the point that without meds, he could not go to school or regularly be in group settings with other children without an aide. Even with meds, he spent 3 years in a non-traditional school for kids with exceptionalities. (He’s in a mainstream, private school now.)
He’s not actually “high energy”. He gets 2, 20-minute recesses everyday and uses them to talk to his buddies in the shade. When we go to the beach, he’s ready to go inside within an hour. He’s in martial arts 2-3 times per week and will go hiking with us if it’s not too hot outside, but he never wants to play in the backyard (even with other kids).
I agree with commenters that we should not be managing kids’ energy with ADHD meds. But for kids with ADHD, meds are the only things that help and are necessary to function.
Anonymous says
I don’t think the notion that ‘for kids with ADHD, meds are the only things that helps’ has been true for us or for many ADHD families we know. Medication is often absolutely crucial but medication alone often just puts kids in place that’s stable enough to be able to work on impulsively or distractibility or learn what strategies work for them. We frequently share strategies about routines/fidgets/clothing that help us with other ADHD families or OT. Like I never thought I’d have a house with a vibrating toothbrush in each room but our OT suggested it and it has been hugely helpful in reducing clothing chewing which had persisted through a number of medication changes.
Anonymous says
Medication may not be sufficient on its own, but for some kids it’s absolutely necessary.
Anonymous says
Agree with Anon at 12:53. Meds take the edge off so my kids can access other coping strategies and learn to function in society. They’re still challenging to have in group settings and require extra adult supervision, but they can (usually) get through a week of school or daycamp without a phone call home. Before meds that wasn’t possible.
Anonymous says
Meds are absolutely necessary. I was disagreeing with the notion that for ADHD kids they are the ONLY thing that helps. That is clear true for some kids but it’s not true for all kids with ADHD. Doctors are often underprepared to offer strategies beyond medication and just offer medication increases instead of also recommending complementary professional support. Medication on its own is not always enough. OT is also crucial and vastly underutilized.
SC says
I mistyped, as I was rushing to finish up with someone walking into my office. DS’s medications are absolutely necessary, and they are the only thing that seem to help his impulsivity, at least enough that he can be in a group setting without an aide, or even in a room by himself. Without meds, he cannot perceive the difference between thought and action–he just immediately does whatever pops into his head, even if it might hurt himself or others (stuff like throwing chairs if he’s dysregulated, but also things like destroying items, wrapping a string tightly around his leg or shoving a pen into the roof of his mouth when there’s nothing to do). With meds, he has a chance to “pause” and think about things.
As an example, the national shortages of ADHD stimulants led to him being on a substitute stimulant in April, and it didn’t work well enough for him. In that month alone, he had several incidents/episodes that led to 2 trips to the principal’s office, 1 principal’s trip to his classroom because he refused to go to her office, and 1 call to pick him up from school after he ran out of the lunch room and hid under the stairs. He didn’t have significant behavior issues before that month, and he’s been fine since we found the correct medication for him at the hospital pharmacy.
Meds are not the only thing that have helped in general. We’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on three types of therapy for 6+ years, and they’ve all helped in different ways. DS spent three years in a school for kids with exceptionalities, and the special education teachers and classroom size and structure helped. (The third year was a disaster that is better off not being mentioned.) DH and I have changed our parenting/ discipline philosophy significantly, thanks to our own meetings with the various therapists, and we get better responses. We arrange our schedules to allow plenty of downtime and rest. It’s all helped, but none of it is enough without the medication.
Anonymous says
It’s not always an either/or situation. 15 minute walk to school every day is crucial. Fresh air and exercise before the day helps with focus. Playground stop on the walk home 2/5 days and physical activity (swimming/karate) on the other 3 days. It’s not easy. Sports like soccer, baseball, hockey were disasters. Swimming, karate, and indoor rock climbing have been hits. DH switched to a less preferred job with more regularly schedule hours and I work 70%. Medication is still necessary but a lower dose than was necessary before we implemented these steps and melatonin on occasion if things have gotten off track for some reason. Less medication was a goal for us because there were issues with insufficient weight gain. There’s a lot of trial and error in figuring out the right combination of medication and support through balanced exercise/screen time/diet. HTH and good luck on figuring out the right combo for your family.
Anonymous says
That’s interesting about the sports! I have two ADHD hockey kids and an ADHD hockey husband, and so, so many of my husband’s beer league hockey friends are also on ADHD meds. My working hypothesis was that the short intense shifts and fast pace are ideal for ADHD brain, so they gravitate to it.
Meanwhile, my non-ADHD kid is meh on hockey but loves karate and indoor rock climbing.
Cb says
Anyone have issues with the progesterone-only pill and anxiety? I stopped the mini pill because the doctor forgot to renew my prescription and my low level anxiety / hypervigilance reduced by 80% within days… I’m feeling so much calmer.
My IUD gave me 7 day super heavy periods, and I’ve got a blood clot history so my hormonal options are limited, but maybe they just don’t agree with me?
Waffles says
The progesterone-only pill gave me a constant, light period for two months straight before I switched off of it. The anxiety was terrible for the first few weeks, but improved with time.
The pill I switched to contains estradiol valerate (Natazia), which has a lower rate of blood clots compared to the ethinyl estradiol that is used in most birth control pills. My period is finally normal, but I am retaining a few pounds of water weight that I didn’t have on progesterone-only.
Waffles says
Oh, and the progesterone-only pill I was on wasn’t exactly a mini-pill — it’s called Heather, and it’s a newer progesterone-only pill that has a larger window of time in which you can take it.
Both Heather and Natazia are more expensive in the U.S. (~$200/month), and may or may not be covered by insurance. I live abroad, and am able to purchase them OTC for ~$30/month.
Anon says
Hi Cb! My doctors claim that this is not backed by science, but my anxiety/emotional highs and lows go haywire on the mini pill. About ten years ago, I tried the pill and all the pill adjacent things for which doctors claim there are no emotional side effects, and I was a mess on all of them. The mini pill, I recall, was the worst for me. I have now been pill free for about a decade (yay c o n d o m s then a V for my husband after our last baby), and I still have some emotional swings, but my anxiety is controllable with things like exercise and sleeping — on the pill, I was like a different person. Rage monster or weeping willow, depending on the time of the month. In my 40s, my periods are heavier and I am more emotional, but I’d still take it over the insanity of the pill.
Anon says
Yes! Came here to say this! I feel relieved that I’m not the only one.
AwayEmily says
I know there are lots of other reasons besides preventing pregnancy that people use BC so please ignore if not relevant, but my husband’s vasectomy was truly life-changing. My body never quiiiite agreed with any BC and it’s just so nice to have that weight lifted.
Anon says
Or condoms. I know they don’t have a great reputation for success but I’ve used them for 20 years with no accidental pregnancy and conceived easily when we tried.
Anon says
I think we’re planning to use condoms + no PIV during ovulation as our birth control. We’re apparently VERY fertile and I would no longer trust condoms during ovulation since I don’t want to rely on Plan B.
Anon at 10:56 says
I am (or was) very fertile too, fwiw. Got pregnant the first month of trying twice and one of those times only did the deed once that month! This apparently runs in my family and I still remember my mom having a conversation with me in middle school or so about how her mother got pregnant on the first try and she got pregnant on the first try so I had to NEVER have sex without birth control, not even once. It was a little TMI at the time but helpful health context to have down the road I guess. Condoms still worked fine for me.
Anon says
Same, pregnant on the first try four times, and second try once. No surprises with condoms throughout my 20s. The last 9 years I’ve switched exclusively to tracking my cycle + abstinence during fertile periods, and even with very irregular cycles we’ve had only planned pregnancies (caveat that you need to use an evidence-backed method of NFP, not just loosey goosey calendar tracking)
Anon says
Agreed! Cb’s said before they’re one and done so this seems like a great situation for a vasectomy. (Which my husband and I both give two thumbs up to)
Anonymous says
This. so much easier. Plus compared to condoms the ability to be spontaneous when you’re balancing a busy life is very helpful. It’s super common amongst the upper middle class professionals in our area. Most husbands do once their family is done having kids.
Anonymous says
Fake progesterone is the devil. There are non-hormonal options that are so much better, including the snip for your husband, barrier methods, or the method which comes easily to many parents–total and complete exhaustion.
Anonymous says
Hey girl, use condoms or he gets the snip!
Anon says
I go back and forth with wondering if I’m too impatient in a negative (or too old fashioned way) or if I’m doing a fine job and it’s okay if I”m a little stricter than other parents. I admit that I’m a pretty black and white, this is how it is person so sometimes I wonder if I”m not parenting with enough compassion, but on the flip side I think that it’s good for kids to not have everything revolve around them? I feel like I make a reasonable statement or decision and then I expect it to be listened to and directions followed.
Like, I didn’t struggle all that much with cry it out. I know its good for babies to be on a schedule and that they need to learn how to self soothe, I made sure the environment was safe and all needs were met (diaper changed, good temperature, recently fed) and figured that it would take some time but would be fine.
With picky phases, I don’t make some meal that I know the kids will hate (dinners are mostly a variation of chicken + grain + veg + fruit… also if you normally like apples, ate apples yesterday, but now “don’t like apples”, too bad – that’s that’s for dinner. You can either eat your fill of the other parts of dinner or you can choke down the apples if you don’t like the rest of dinner) but I am making one meal and they can choose to eat it or not, but that’s what’s for dinner. There are choices at all 3 meals, limited choices, but choices. I’m also not spending the entire dinner conversation talking about this or bargaining or convincing you that you like apples. It is here on the table, and you can quite literally take it or leave it. I’m not making them eat – it’s not like I’m not letting them up until they’re done eating or reserving them the meal for breakfast the next day or some horror story. But, we don’t do snacks after dinner and there’s no dessert unless you eat a proper dinner (vegetables) so you can eat your fill of what’s being served or you can wait for breakfast.
I think I’m fun when its time to be fun and I allow more screen time (my rule is that we only watch TV or movies and only on the TV – so now tablets, phones, video or phone games games, or watching the iPad at the restaurant, but I allow more time than others) and “junk” food than other moms. I am very tolerant of messy play like arts and crafts or a kitchen experiment and using the sprinkler even if it’ll kill the grass. I’m also a huge proponent of active play even if it may be a little riskier or rougher, so am okay with trampolines or climbing trees or playing ball in the house. So, I think we do a lot of fun things too.
I also feel strongly that kids should be out and about, but they also have to learn how to appropriately act when out and about. So, we take our kids out to eat probably about once a week. They can order whatever, I bring non-electronic toys like coloring books or a doll. We actively engage our kids in conversation, both fun conversation but also a few learning opportunities (table manners or hey what do you think that is). But, if there’s a tantrum then one parent is taking the tantrum kid out of the restaurant and we will not go back until calm down. Or, if its a non-tantrum issue you will be told sharply to knock it off and then we will leave (I try not to yell, but I do, but I think its fine to talk sharply to a misbehaving kid – I”m not using any negative language (cursing at them, telling them negative things about them like they’re dumb or bad or anything, but neutral words in a sharp tone certainly get used). I know some people would think that that’s mean: I’m expecting a kid to sit and behave without an iPad (yes, but I’m also providing other entertainment), I’m not letting a kid finish their meal (between 3 meals a day and snacks no one is going hungry, but yes you get to lose out on the special meal if you cannot behave.
I also try to be pretty emotionally in tune with my kids, so when something is harder for them I still have a standard that they’re held to (so not a total free pass for behavior) but I’m aware that they may be having bigger feelings and try to not push them. So like, if a kid is having a melt down day we won’t try going out to eat, we’ll have a calmer day at home. But if we are out to eat and there is a melt down, then we will leave. I understand that kids have big feelings, but they need to deal with those feelings in an appropriate way. I’m strict about sleeping schedules and not militant about eating but also make sure we don’t have hangry kids by having a plan for food – I want to make sure all needs are met so that a meltdown or misbehavior is not caused by a tired, hangry, or overly bored kid. I think kids being a little bored is fine – coming with me on errands or a short stop at a museum on vacation. But, I also don’t expect my kids to sit through a 3 course meal or spend a day in a museum. And, I make sure we have plenty of opportunity for both active play to get out the energy but also quiet time to chill out.
I feel like my approach is to clearly and explicitly set the boundary, allow just about anything within that boundary, but once its crossed I am not playing around and the hammer will come down. But, I feel like I can have a short fuse. If you cross that boundary, there will be a consequence. I’m not doing a million warnings. I count to 3, but when I get to 3 then you’ve had your chance and we’re done. We can discuss what choices you made, why you’re in trouble, and what you can do next time to not be in trouble but we’re not discussing all of these feelings or giving you an out for your behavior via our discussion. So, I know I’ve sent a kid to time out or taken away a privilege faster or for less than many other parents would, which does at times make me wonder if I’m too strict.
Anon says
What you just described is how I hope to parent (baby coming in the fall). At least from my perspective, you’re doing fine.
Anon says
Thanks – I caught myself again at the post about melatonin and meds for energetic kids. My first thought was of course you don’t – you give kids time to play and “get their energy out” but you also enforce consequences for not having self control when they need it. If you’re running around in the yard or basement and knock something over, fine. If you do it in the dining room during dinner when you know you shouldn’t be running around, not fine. If you’re reaching for something during dinner and accidentally knock it over but you were behaving appropriately at the table, fine.
Older kid can’t fall asleep? You can stay awake in your bed with your stuffies or a book all night long, but you need to a) stay in bed and b) be quiet. If you can’t do that then you’ll have an earlier bed time tomorrow night.
Toddler who keeps getting up in the night? I’ll escort them back to bed. If they had a bad dream or are sick I’ll stay with them to calm them down. If they’re getting up just to get up then I will keep escorting them back to bed until they stay there, even if it takes all night. And, when I’m escorting them back to bed there’s no cuddling or stories or frankly even speaking besides a) making sure they’re okay and b) telling them they need to go back to, and stay in, bed. And, after a few times telling them that if they don’t stay in bed there will be no screen time tomorrow.
Anon says
Re: your last point, I have a close friend who is very involved/cuddly/tries to make it bonding time when her almost-four-year-old wakes up at odd hours and wants to shout or do things. It looks downright miserable to me. She insists it’s “nice to spend time together” and I’ll defer to her on that, but I know we need to do it differently in my family because my husband and I are better people when we get sleep.
Anon says
here is where i think there is room for nuance.
your first paragraph – i agree with.
older kid – i posted above about my twin girls re melatonin. the can’t fall asleep can be a HUGE problem for the rest of the day if kiddo isn’t getting enough sleep. even if they can lay quietly in bed, if they aren’t getting enough sleep – how do you solve for that?
with my toddlers, i escorted back to bed. there was a phase after one of my kids had covid when she was waking up 4+ times a night. fortunately i was work from home during that period and could squeeze in naps, but if i was a surgeon, i can understand needing to find a way to prioritize parent sleep. we don’t do screen time during the week, so there was nothing to really take away. also- i have a kid who had night terrors. they have NO control over waking up and don’t realize they are awake, so you cant just keep walking them back.
but there is still no one “right” answer. however, since you say you think you might be too black/white, these are just some thoughts
Anon says
yes, I should have been clearer in my example. I meant if its a one-off or occasional occurrence not habitual like your twins!
And illness like COVID or abnormal situations like the night terrors are definitely different. I think I mentioned it above, but I think I’m much more understanding when there are nightmares or kids are sick – they I will rub their back or lay with them until they fall back asleep. But, the “I just don’t want to stay in my bed right now” is something I have no tolerance for.
Anon says
Yeah, this was also my reaction. A pretty rigid parenting style works for certain kids, but not others. I have one kid for whom the OP’s approach would be/is fine, and how we address it. But I have another kid who just — isn’t wired that way, and following this approach led to a lot of anxiety. So if your kids are happy and thriving, then do it! Who cares what other parents are doing. But if you are finding yourself constantly correcting, you possibly aren’t parenting the kid you actually have. I’m far enough along in my parenting journey to say that every absolute I had when I had one little kid has been blown out of the water by either time or a subsequent kid.
Cb says
Gently, I think as long as you’re kind and loving, the kids will be fine? I feel like everyone has their thing they are strict or lax on and each kid will respond differently, so you just have to do you. A friend and I do joke that we are the strictest mums in town – but mostly because we make our kids wear school uniforms and don’t let them mainline Prime drinks and youtube on the walk to school.
Sometimes I think the speed in which I enforce a boundary (often quite quick, I’ve got a low threshold for shenanigans) helps reduce shouting, grumpiness, versus a “tolerate until you shout…” We can correct the behaviour, connect, and move on much more quickly.
Anon says
This is helpful thank you! I think there are multiple ways to be strict: what you allow (your first paragraph) and how you react (your second paragraph) and I am strict in both, but definitely stricter in how I react. I too have a low threshold for shenanigans – whether that’s dawdling or whining or actual misbehavior.
I basically spent all night last night snapping at kids (mostly whining and backtalk – I have no tolerance for backtalk and maybe that’s something I shut down too quickly) and wondered if I was being too strict, but also its very much aligned with the rest of my personality – this is who I am, I am not being strict for the sake of being strict.
Cb says
I feel like if I’m snappy, sometimes we just need a break from each other. I’m not above saying “you’re driving me bananas with that baby talk / whining, I’m going to go have a break for 10 minutes and come back and we can figure things out”.
Anon says
yes, i agree with this. kids are humans too and just like we sometimes are tired/in bad moods because of x, y and z, they are too. like i’m definitely guilty of snapping at my spouse or not using the nicest tone when i’m not actually mad at my spouse, but frustrated with something at work, tired etc.. one of my kids is a HUGE whiner. it drives me bonkers. she is 6. we are very much working on helping her articulate what is bothering her. The other day she said “i’m sorry i’m whining, i’m just so hangry” and last night she said “i talk like this when i’m very sleepy.”
Anon says
How old are your kids?
I think you are doing fine — but my kids might be older than yours, so just some thoughts — you might want to drop your end of the rope, so to speak, as they age if you are finding they are backtalking a lot and you are continually trying to control it or police it. My kids *do not* backtalk to me at all, but I also don’t police every single thing that comes out of their mouths. I’ve found my friends who are more controlling of every emotion or outburst of their child end up with kids who back talk more. It seems to be a bad cycle — Kid gets upset and says something, you are punishing/speaking strictly to the kid about being upset, the kid is going to get more upset and can’t calm down and is going to backtalk back.
You know your kid best – I try to give grace and especially let comments slide if a kid is tired, upset about something, etc. Or ignoring whining as they are asked to do a chore they don’t want to do, especially if they are actually doing the chore. I also am not 100% at my best, all the time, and it would drive me nuts if someone said (a) I had to do something, and (b) someone was policing how I felt about it. For instance, yeah, my 9 year old is going to sulk and complain that “doing the dishes sucks” or “I hate doing the dishes” — and if I say “You will do the dishes bc that’s your job.” I can imagine a 9 year old’s next reaction is would be to direct his ire at having to do the dishes at me (bc human nature) and snap at me. If instead, I just walk away — or agree, that yah, it does suck, or even better, if I make a joke (“agree – that’s why we had kids to do all the icky chores!”) he’s more likely to still grumble, but not back talk or snap at me. My best friend – who does pride herself on being a strict parent who doesn’t do the gentle parenting thing – gets into these types of battles over how her 9 year old son reacts to chores, homework, etc., and I often observe that she seems to spend a lot of emotional energy on these types of battles, when it was pretty clear that the kid didn’t start off wanting to get into a fight with her. He is just a normal kid who would rather play outside than do dishes or a math worksheet.
Anyway. Just my thoughts.
AwayEmily says
I’ve noticed something similar. Another parent I know gets very upset if their kid uses potty words (“That is NOT appropriate! Stop right now!”), and once chastised my 6yo for singing some gross song he learned at summer camp. We have a hard line on no potty talk at the table but otherwise figure kids will be kids and it’s a normal stage. Anyway, her kid (when his mom is not around) uses WAAAAAAAY more bad language than every other kid I know, combined. I think pushing back too hard on that stuff can have a boomerang effect.
Anon says
This is helpful, thank you. I think backtalk annoyed me originally because it would be when I was doing a million things, would tell someone to do something, and then I’d get back talk (me: hey, dinner is almost ready, can you set the table? kid back to me: (in an annoying voice) can YOU set the table? or kids saying why / I don’t want to / I set the table yesterday why can’t (other kid); meanwhile I have picked up the kids, started a load of laundry, helped them with their HW, made dinner, emptied the dishwasher and now I’m asking for 1 kid to set the table. And, I didn’t ask your sister I asked you because I asked your sister to take out the trash and she’s doing that). And that just led to me getting really irritated with all backtalk. Also, its just disrespectful, and not in a “I am your mother, you don’t talk to your mother that way” way (or maybe a little in that way), but in a “I don’t talk to you this way, so please don’t speak to me this way” way.
As for your example with the dishes, I admit that I have probably too adult of a view of it. I am very much of the mindset that dishes aren’t fun, but it doesn’t matter if its fun or not. The dishes need to be washed, so we wash them. The end.
I don’t care that my kids dont want to set the table or do the dishes (be as upset about it as you want, that’s fine with me – I’m not trying to police people’s feelings). I also don’t care if they complain about doing the dishes – as long as its not being rude to me or using language that we don’t allow – you can say you hate doing dishes but you can’t say I hate you for making me do the dishes or why can’t you do the dishes or doing the dishes f**king sucks. My approach is to say “no one wants to do the dishes, but we have to do them”.
Anon says
Yeah, I think this original poster must have young kids. And possibly an only? I think flexibility is actually a hugely important skill as a parent, especially as kids get older. And what works for one kid certainly may not work for another.
Anon says
Agreed!! And wonderful friend’s son – who is also a wonderful kid, but who is highly, highly, highly controlled in terms of behavior expectations and reactions is the first kid to eyeroll authority figures like me (and anecdotally, teachers and coaches) when his mom isn’t around and be sneaky to get away with things he’s not allowed to do. I will be upstairs and can hear him telling my son that they should sneak cookies, and my son is like, “or we could just ask my mom?”
We have one other family in our close orbit who were also pretty controlling with their smaller child, but they have been better about loosening up their grip as the kid has aged, and the relationship with their kid seems to have significantly improved in the last two years (the kid is now 13, and far less angsty than they were at 10).
Anon says
@OP @ 11:30 — I would still drop that rope in that moment. To “why don’t YOU set the table?” or “it’s not my turn” , I’d probably cheerfully go “Nope, your turn.” I also get a lot of milage out of a very calm “Try again.” and move on. Like, literally walk away from where the kid is.
The bigger issue is that it sounds like you are feeling underappreciated or overworked in your house, and whining is the straw on the camel’s back? You can’t fix that by monitoring a kid’s tone in the moment. Also, kids are hardwired by biology to be self-centered, and it’s not their job to notice how much you are doing. Set a family meeting when things are calm, set expectations for who is doing what, and even expectations about whining (“fine to be annoyed you have to do a chore, not fine to be rude.”). In my family, we’d name the rule something silly, like the “Booger Rule” (as in, don’t be a booger about having to do chores), then the offending kid would be reminded “Hey, you are violating the Booger Rule kid.” The silly name would break the tension, and help the kid drop their frustration.
Then do what you can to lower your frustration so that whining isn’t an immediate trigger for you. For me, when my hair trigger is up about a behavior, I get a babysitter and leave the house at chore time with the expectation it will be done when I return, or shifting more chores to other people.
Anon says
Thanks – I do find, at times, that if I do walk away then the task doesn’t get done. I get that kids are going to complain about doing XYZ and won’t do chores without it being monitored in one way or another – but I also don’t want kids to see that if they put up a fight, I don’t want to fight so I drop it, and now they are getting away without doing chores.
So, they give me lip about setting the table, I walk away, I come back and the table isn’t set, now what? It feels very punitive to punish a kid over not setting the table when asked and setting the table isn’t that big of a deal – but also it is disobedience and its also just rude – someone cooked you a meal, its polite to set the table. It’s not something I want to let go, because a) I think its important that everyone in the family chips in for family things and b) if I let this go, what’s the next thing they’re going to push? What if its a safety-based rule that they just disobey and now we have a bigger problem?
It feels very militaristic to say that if I tell you to do something, I expect you to do it. But also, I’m sowing the seeds now for when they’re older and the stakes are higher. If I tell you you aren’t allowed to drive the car without me present when you have your permit but you ignore that too and drive illegally and get in an accident that’s a much bigger deal.
But, also kids are kids and I don’t expect them to follow orders.
Anonymous says
11:37, this reminded me. We had an issue a few years ago that seemed to crop up even though we’re pretty reasonable. If a kid asked for a cookie, probably 70% of the time we’d say sure and the 30% of the time we’d explain why they couldn’t (dinner is soon, we’re going out for ice cream later so that’s our treat today but you can have another snack instead). Kid then stopped asking and started sneaking cookies because there was a 30% chance we’d say no and they didn’t like that. I totally get that kids who are restricted from something go crazy when they get the opportunity for the forbidden fruit (which is why we have dessert offered every day!) but I wasn’t prepared for the kid who almost always gets a sweet if they ask for it going rogue too!
Anonymous says
I sometimes address rude behavior by engaging the child ‘Do you think that was a kind way to speak to me?’ Let them answer. Or “are you allowed to speak that way to your teacher?” ‘No? It’s also not how we speak to each other in this house.” That’s usually when I offer a chance to try again with how they responded and offer praise if they do it quickly.
Acknowledge their feelings – ‘I know you really don’t want to set the table right now but it is your turn. Sometimes we have to do not fun things like brush teeth or set the table. Let’s get it done quick and you have 5 more minutes to play before dinner.”
I also use the oven timer or a phone alarm a lot so they have notice. ‘When the timer bings in 2 minutes then it’s time to set the table.’ I let the timer continue to go until they get up and start doing the activity.
Anon says
CB, I like your second paragraph. I’ve heard other friends say that they can enjoy their kids more and have more happy moments when the boundaries are set and enforced with speed.
Boston Legal Eagle says
There’s no one right way to parent. I think there are a few blanket wrongs – hitting your kid, telling them they are awful or worthless or not good enough, or trying to force them to be something they are not. Everything else is just what you’re comfortable with/is easier for you. I think you’re fine.
AwayEmily says
Yup. My former neighbors were child psychologists and one thing they told me that really stuck with me was “there’s not one way that’s right — what matters most is consistency.” So whether it’s food, or sleep, or discipline — consistency is what makes your kid feel safe. It’s not knowing what to expect from their adults that is upsetting for kids.
Anonymous says
I very much agree with your blanket wrongs, but still sometimes struggle with not having a last resort / nuclear option that my parents had. When normal consequences aren’t working, I at times feel at a loss. I would never, ever hit a kid but I guess I see why it was used in the past.
When I was growing up, this was what spankings were reserved for, but obviously that is 100% off the table. It was taboo enough in the 90s that it was no one’s go to punishment, but not taboo enough that it was never used. I think I was only spanked once or twice and my memory is that the spanking itself wasn’t bad, but rather there was the shock that the “nuclear option” was warranted. But, I remember it being an effective threat (when used sparingly – it was probably threatened as often as it was used in my house) because once during an hours long bed time standoff in elementary school (I thought my 8PM bedtime was too early (many friends were allowed to stay up til 9) and so I sat on the living room floor and would. not. budge); there was yelling, future loss of TV time, and I was grounded and I did not budge. Once they said that if I did not go to bed right now then I was going to be spanked I immediately went to bed.
I don’t want to just increase how long they’ll lose screen time because I think it’s not very effective as its not an immediate consequence (in the moment it doesn’t affect the kid if they’re losing it for 5 days or 6). I had a friend who was grounded for 6 months in high school for getting caught drinking – he didn’t care about getting in trouble or doing poorly in school during those 6 months because “what are my parents gonna do, ground me?:. And, then if they’re misbehaving in 4 days when they’ve already lost screen time, then that’s one less option I have as a consequence.
Anyways, I thought of this because the other day we were having a tough day and I well beyond my last nerve and I actually said the proverbial “wait til your father comes home” (this was never a threat in my family growing up, it just slipped out! But, I knew a lot of friends where this was the most feared threat. Its 2024, my kids don’t know what that threat stereotypically meant (I even got a sassy “why” from my 8 year old), and I had meant it as a “I need a break and your father needs to come tag in” not as a “your father is going to come home and punish you” but my husband and I had a chuckle over it later)
Anon says
For those of you who already drastically limit or don’t allow screentime, are there other effective consequences that resonate or work well?
Anon says
Anecdata from my own childhood with strict parent who didnt spank.
I was grounded for almost a year for bullying when I was in middle school, grounded 2 weeks for property damage in early elementary (plus some misc shorter stints).
Punishments were:
groundings were limited to your bedroom except for 3 meals, bathroom breaks, assigned chores or school, no television or gameboy, no friends or going out.
writing lines (which you had to redo if they were sloppy),
writing essays about proper behavior which got copy edited by my parents and I had to write a clean draft that met the set word or page count,
writing apology letters that had to go with an in person spoken apology,
going to confession (catholic),
not allowed to go on field trips or go to school fun events,
writing book or other reports my parents would assign. redoing school work or tests.
additional chores (do it sloppy or halfway and you do it again the right way, doesnt matter if or how much you whine or cry),
loss of allowance or use of the car at those ages.
Basically lots and lots of writing, and self reflection, and bless me father for i have sinneds, and being bored in your bed room.
And parents who were 100% consistent and united on expectations and didnt put up with misbehaviors at home or school. I do t think my parents ever really gave in or let things slide. In fairness my brother and I got good at hiding the small things (like a bad grade or mild bad behavior) but knowing our parents ment business kept us from being out of line for the most part.
Anon says
Wow grounded like that for a whole year seems really harsh. But also, I can’t even think of what I’d do if a kid was bulling others. Our rules are (in this order): 1) be kind and respectful 2) be safe 3) be responsible / do what you know you’re supposed to do and 4) everything else. So, bullying would totally set me off, but a year of being grounded like that almost seems extreme, even if coming down hard on that behavior is very, very warranted in my book.
This is just another reminder that there’s no perfect way to do things – timeouts and grounding were proposed as a good alternative to spanking until they say that its harmful to kids to be separated like that, extra chores for not doing your chores / writing an essay for bad behavior / redoing HW assignments that weren’t done, were late, or weren’t done well seems to be a punishment that fits the crime, until they say that that will make kids hate cleaning and they’ll be slobs as adults or make kids hate school (and they say the same about punishment workouts at sports too). Taking away dessert will make kids binge sweets, ditto removing screen time. But also, of course, no consequences is also bad.
We can all only do our best, I guess.
AwayEmily says
We don’t use screentime as a punishment or reward, ever. Generally our “serious” consequences involve not being able to do something fun, because it can be framed as a natural consequence. The key is that you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH, even if it is inconvenient for you. So if you tell them that “if you continue to call your sister names, you’re showing me you are not mature enough to go to the water park with us on Saturday” and then they call their sister names again…well, then a parent has to stay home with them while everyone else goes to the water park. The good news is that if you follow through a couple of times and use “consequences” sparingly, then they start to believe you.
Anon says
The near year of grounding for bullying was extreme but fit the crime. It was a year of escalating meangirling and bullying on the bus and at school, culminating in the penning and delivery of an vicious and disgusting letter to a girl that had been my best friemd until that point, which I tried pinning on someone else. Curbing bullying behavior is hard, there is no perfect one size solution but the swift and harsh one worked in this case. I made my admissions of guilt and remorse, offerred apologies (letters and in person), took forgiveness where it was given, went to confession (still remember how sick I felt in the car knowing I had to tell the Father) and did the penance, and lived through the grounding. I dont really share or talking about what I was like from 10 – 12 yo out of shame and regret, but as 30 something I now have strong feelings about not being a passive bystander or tolerate bullying behaviors.
I think generally every generation of parent tries to do better than what they knew. My parents got the belt from their parents. My mom was slapped by her father even into college.
Anon says
Yeah I had a tough relationship with my father as a kid. He yelled a lot and once or twice hit the wall right next to me when he was mad. But as a kid he was punched in the nose by his father and his mother broke a wooden hanger over his head. He broke the cycle in many ways and definitely did a lot better than his parents. We’re very close now that I’m an adult, fwiw.
Anon says
+1 that every generation tries to do better than their parents’. I think its harder right now than in other eras, because we’re only a few generations into not hitting. My parents didn’t spank but yelled a lot and were I think often grasping at straws (they knew not to spank, they didn’t know what to do). So now I’m trying to do better than them, but I don’t have a great road map of what to do, much like they didn’t have a road map of how to discipline without hitting.
My friend was telling me how she and her mom were recently discussing this. I guess she expressed that she didn’t agree with some of her parents’ parenting decisions and her mom was basically like what do you mean? We never spanked you, therefore we’re great parents. And, to that generation that was great parenting. But to us, there is still room to improve.
Anon says
My cousin, who is a child psychologist, considers any punishment with any physical aspect (extra chores, writing lines, or even a timeout where you physically move the child to the time out seat) as a physical punishment. Basically if bodily autonomy is in anyway violated, it’s physical. I’m all for bodily autonomy, but I do disagree with her here.
It came out that she thought this way because my aunt was babysitting for her and her toddler did not want to get out of the bath, so my aunt picked up the toddler and took him out of the tub. Toddler starts to cry because he wasn’t done playing in the water yet, my cousin comes in, and then is mad at her mom for “physically disciplining” her kid.
All this to say, I have never had my kids write lines as a punishment but I don’t think I”m against it, but others might give you some side eye.
Anon says
In what was probably my not-finest moment (and something that won’t work for a kid not going to bed) when a kid would just. not. stop. all day long I said you know what? you’re going to bed and you can try again in the morning, but your behavior today was enough that today is over. It was basically just a very long time out. I brought up a sandwich for dinner.
Anon says
i’m probably a bit too lax with certain things and give too many warnings without following through, which i know is not good, but sometimes i don’t have the energy for the meltdown. i do a lot of solo parenting. i think what you do sounds fine, though you don’t say the age of your kids. and as long as there is some space for nuance when appropriate/relevant. and you know your kids. i have one kid who using a sharp tone with her is like a meltdown instigator. she has sensory challenges and is very sensitive to noise/tone.
Anonymous says
Not sure what you’re asking for here — if your parenting style is working for you, great! Other parents you see may have different approaches that work for their own kids, or they haven’t figured out a style that consistently works for their kids, or a little of both. We’re all just doing our best out here.
Anon says
I guess that even though it’s working for me, is it working for my kids? My mom had a short fuse and we’re really close 90% of the time, but when she’s too snappy as an adult I can just walk away. I remember being a kid and being annoyed by how cranky mom could be and occasionally walking on eggshells- and I do still think about it 30 years later. So, even if I”m being a good mom now, am I too strict / quick to snap in a way that’s upsetting my kids without them showing it?
Anon says
This is worth thinking about, but in your original post, you described the fun that you guys have too (risky play, arts and crafts). As long as that is still going strong, I think you can avoid many of the downsides of being cranky and not fun. Also, tone and body language matter too. A matter of fact “it’s time to leave now” is a lot different from a huff, eyeroll, and “I guess we’re leaving then” in response to poor behavior.
Anon says
Thank you! Yes, I very rarely yell, don’t think I am either emotional or come off as angry but am very matter of fact and direct: “if you don’t stop doing that, we will leave” and then if they don’t stop “we are leaving now”.
My parents and grandparents and my entire extended family, and I’m sure generations before them, are/were lovely people who all had tempers. I didn’t like it as a kid, and I don’t like dealing with it now (now I’ll push back be like why are you mad about that? or why are you reacting that way?), so I am not at all emotional in that way. Most of the time their temper comes out it isn’t aimed at anyone, but rather a situation, but still it is annoying to be around and I consciously don’t want to be like that. So, I’m not. But, I don’t want my kids looking back on their childhood thinking oh wow mom was so strict about stuff that doesn’t really matter (and if they think I’m too strict about being kind and respectful to everyone then idgaf).
We have a lot of fun as a family, and there are stretches of days when everyone is behaving and I don’t scold or institute consequences at all. But, I still feel like I spend a lot of time telling someone to knock something off.
Anonymous says
You can acknowledge your feelings to them. I say stuff like “guys I don’t want to have to use my grumpy mommy voice so can you please listen”. Or tell them you feel really frustrated and you need to think for a moment to decide what to do.
And ‘wait until your father gets home’ in our house is more like ‘Mom and Dad will have to talk about what happens because of XYZ behavior’ (like how long they lose the ipad for if they broke a rule about the ipad). That positions us as a team but also explains that the action was serious enough that we need to discuss it to agree on a consequence. It’s okay if you can’t decide on a consequence in the moment for certain things. Just acknowledge that you will be deciding on one and will tell them before bedtime or something.
Anonymous says
Thank you for the reminder that parents don’t have to decide on a consequence immediately. As we’re shifting from things that can be quickly addressed (if you throw a toy, that toy is going away, if you hit your sister you will go to timeout) to bigger issues its a good reminder for me that I don’t need an answer right away.
As our kids are getting a little older and the behavior challenges are changing, I also think it would benefit my husband and I to sit down and reevaluate our parenting and discipline approaches, to make sure we’re on the same page and to have a loose framework. I believe that consistency is really important, so definitely want to makes sure we’re on the same page. How did you and your spouse figure out what behavior was okay, what wasn’t okay, and what types of consequences you would use?
The little kid stuff came pretty easily to me – we agreed on the big stuff in advance but the in the moment stuff was easy for me to figure out. Now, not so much…
SC says
My kid is 9, but once last year, we spent a day or two deciding what DS’s punishment was going to be. The anticipation/ dread of hearing the punishment turned about to be part of the punishment.
Anon says
@OP – in your example above about setting the table and your kid responded that they didnt want to etc., and that in your mind you’d already done x, y and z and asked sister to do something else – – – how did you handle that moment?
we are supposed to be teaching them to be more aware of others and the things that others are doing, and what it takes to make a household run, etc. and expecting them to never whine/answer in an annoying voice seems like a completely unrealistic expectation and will lead to them feeling like they are walking on eggshells. of course you don’t talk to your kid in that same annoying voice as you are an adult who is better at managing their behavior/speaking and they are a child.
Anon says
If it’s just a little attitude but they do what I”m asking them to do I’ll let them know that I don’t appreciate their tone. If they ask why they’re being asked to do something I explain why (your sister is taking out the trash or she set the table last night). I go back and forth on my approach to them giving attitude – I don’t need them to be happy about doing chores, but I also don’t want to hear the backtalk. And, I don’t want them giving attitude to teachers, coaches or other authority figures now. I don’t want them to get in trouble at work down the road for attitude either.
They’ve never given lip and then refused to set the table (or whatever), but in that case I think I would say that they can also clear the table tonight or set the table tomorrow or something along those lines. We haven’t had a situation where they flat out refuse to do something, but I do think my husband and I need to brainstorm on that.
Anonymous says
This sounds pretty much like our house. We do one meal that has at least one part that every kid likes, usually fruit for dessert and option to have glass of milk/toast if you’re hungry before bed. We involve the kids in cooking and meal planning so no major complaints. I can also overdo it on a favorite food one day and not be interested in it the next so I get that happens to kids too.
For screen time we don’t do it for car trips unless they are longer than an hour. Kids are good about reading or entertaining themselves with eye-spy or something. We will do audio books or music. Usually no screens in restaurants but I don’t judge people who do – I have no idea if their kid is autistic or if they have been crazy busy at work and just need a break and to eat quietly. Also do clear boundaries and 3 chances. The other one I use a lot is “would you like to try that again?” This is my go to for rude behavior or attitude. I usually say “great job I knew you could do it” if they try again more politely. Important for kids to learn they can mess up and try again.
Anonymous says
Sounds like you have easy kids. My kid was pretty easy about sleep and behavior in public and all of that, and your approaches all worked well. She was also the world’s pickiest eater, and no amount of “this is what’s for dinner, take it or leave it” would work. She was quite literally willing to starve herself rather than eat pretty much anything, and the less she ate the less her natural hunger signals worked. We pretty much had to force her to eat for a while until her system recalibrated, and even as her list of “safe” foods expanded it was difficult to make meals that contained something she’d eat but were also nutritious and palatable to the rest of the family.
With experience I’ve come to believe that while bad parenting may cause or exacerbate some issues, there is no amount of good parenting that can overcome innate personality traits or defects, and not all kid problems are the parents’ fault.
Anon says
+1000 to your second paragraph. I generally believe kids’ behave is much less influenced by parenting than a lot of people think (beyond basics like being loving, etc.)
Anon says
+ a million to your second paragraph (as the mom of fraternal twins(
Anon says
This is definitely the poster who posted about narrating things at the grocery store, right? We can again tell you you’re a great parent?
Anon says
Not me!
I think my parenting actions are good, even if maybe stricter than others, but I do worry about the delivery I guess. I often feel like we’re the only family speaking “harshly”, or at the least authoritatively, to my kids (“watch your tone”, “we are going home because you could not keep your hands to yourself”, “knock that off RIGHT NOW”). I’m not yelling or cursing or calling them names or anything, but I don’t use “gentle parent speak”. I think there’s a lot of gentle parenting that’s good: giving choices, discussing why, discussing bad behavior with a kid. I do these as I have time / capacity, but not everything is discussed and not everything is a choice – which then leads me to feel like I’m barking out orders (after a few minutes it goes from “I need you to get dressed” to a harsher voice saying “get dressed right now”. On a Tuesday morning I don’t have time to ask do you want to get dressed or do you want mom to get you dressed or do you want to brush your teeth first or get dressed first – I just need it to get done).
While I, as an adult, don’t think there’s anything wrong with my communication style, I realize that my parents also didn’t think that there was anything wrong with yelling so maybe I do need to be doing better.
Anon says
you commented above “I go back and forth on my approach to them giving attitude – I don’t need them to be happy about doing chores, but I also don’t want to hear the backtalk. And, I don’t want them giving attitude to teachers, coaches or other authority figures now. I don’t want them to get in trouble at work down the road for attitude either.” and that if they give attitude they have to clear the table in addition to setting it. —- to me, this is where perhaps it sounds like your boundary is too tight. obviously I cannot guarantee this and I don’t think you’ve mentioned the ages of your kids, but while mine might give me attitude, they are angels at school. my kids would never in a million years talk to a teacher the way they sometimes talk to me. for many many many kids their parents get their “worst” behavior bc they feel safest. this might make me sound terrible, but i don’t necessarily speak to my husband when frustrated the same way I’d speak to my boss when frustrated. that is likely also the case with your kids. a lot of kids keep it together all day and then home is where they let it out. this improves/changes with age.
you sound like a wonderful parent who really loves your kids, but there must be something that made you post this that maybe doesn’t feel right to you about what you are doing now.
Anon says
Thank you! I think one thing I struggle with, at times, is scaling things to is it a problem now, is it going to be a problem in a few years, or is it going to be a problem when they’re adults? I don’t want to get too in the weeds about something now that ultimately won’t matter and I don’t want to gloss over something that seems like a NBD now that is going to come home to roost in 20 years. I try to be equally focused on what I should be doing now to raise good kids in the present and what I should be doing to raise good future adults. But, of course, there isn’t a crystal ball to tell me how what I’m doing, or not doing, now will impact them down the road.
Nothing specifically led to me asking this, I just try to “check in” on my parenting every so often so that I know I’m being intentional about it and not just falling in a habit of doing XYZ.
Anon says
your getting dressed example to me is where it can be kid dependent. i have one kid where what you do to get kiddo to get dressed on a Tuesday morning might work. my other kid, would be in tears. she is not a morning person and struggles with executing tasks, particularly those involving motor skills. harsh tones do nothing for her other than make her have a complete hysterical meltdown. following your script would make it actually take longer/is less productive than giving her a choice ‘do you want to eat breakfast or get dressed first.’ yes, i do need her to do both of those things, but i truthfully don’t really care which she does first. –>but if what you do works for you and your family, then there is nothing wrong with that!
Anon again says
Ha, okay, fair. I have four kids, so we have all sorts of harsh tones flying around. I definitely pulled a “kid full name! get down RIGHT NOW” at a work party over the weekend. I think it’s kid dependent. If that works for your kids, great. I have another kid who if I speak in a strong tone will immediately burst into tears and likes to punish herself, which is kind of not cool. But I wouldn’t worry too much about being too strict UNLESS your kids are hiding things from you. I think that’s the only concern.
Anon says
Yes, it seems to work – if I break out my “mean” voice they usually listen and it does not seem to upset a kid. We had tears a few times, but turns out they were tears about having gotten caught and not about the tone used.
Anonymous says
I similarly can have a short fuse about boundaries but I have done a lot of work to not be that way with my kid. I just don’t want to live in a home where we snap at each other, so I lead by example. It’s important to me that our home be warm/fun.
I don’t think any of your consequences are different than mine based on your examples, but I try to stay calm and friendly in my delivery / enforcement of them. Your self described delivery sounds kind of like you think you are snapping at them/ mean. Only you can decide if that is true and if you are ok with that.
Also, you talk a lot about your kids as future employees, but what if they are the boss? I personally want my boss to calmly set and enforce expectations, not yell at me or snap at me about them.
Anon says
Thank you for this – it is also important to me that our home environment is loving, fun, and warm. I only really take a snappy tone with them after I’ve had to tell them something a few times. But, even the first time I say something it’s pretty direct (“I need you to take out the trash” vs “can you please take out the trash”).
I try to model that speaking to each other respectfully goes both ways (when they snap at me I remind them that I don’t speak to them like this so why are they speaking to me in this way). I hope that that would sink in that if they’re the boss they should be speaking to everyone the way they want to be spoken to. While I don’t have a military background (but my husband does), I work in a similarly very hierarchical setting where there are standards for how we do everything including how we speak to each other . We also have a lot of training at every level, so leadership and addressing a team are all addressed before someone becomes the boss. Your post was a really good reminder to me that its very likely my kids will work in a more traditional environment, without ranks, and without such intensive leadership training and that I need to prepare them for that!
I actually used to have a boss who was a rarity in our field because he always used please and thank you and started conversations with good morning before jumping into work even at 5AM. I remember thinking it was weird that he did so and a few times would say that I don’t know why you’re thanking me for doing my job. Doing the job the way I am expected to is the expectation, not something worthy of thanks.
It wasn’t a conscious choice to move from asking to telling, but I should revisit that.
Anon says
Your example of taking out the trash phrasing- saying “can you please take out the trash” makes it sounds optional. But an in between is “please take out the trash” and as others have said tone can matter a lot. The way you describe your tone it does kind of sound like you are barking orders, which give this info about your husband’s background and your work environment makes sense. If your kid is leading other kids in group project or even play on the playground is this how you’d want them to lead? Also, while I take a lot of what parenting “experts” say with a grain of salt, one thing that rings true is just bc your kid acts a certain way at age 6 or age 10, doesn’t mean that’s how they are going to talk to their boss at age 40! We have this tendency (and I’m guilty of it to) of thinking that if a kid acts a certain way now they will act that way many years later. Like I have a 8 year old who isn’t ready for sleepovers while many of her friends went to sleep away camp this summer for a month. I was stressed and talking to a friend about it and she was like this doesn’t mean your kid will never go away to college! Based on everything you’ve said I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, but it also doesn’t sound like a super warm way of speaking to one another, which is important to me, but maybe not to you
Anon says
I think you’re doing great! A lot of these sentiments I agree with. Now 5 years in my kids are breaking down my resolve a bit haha
Anon says
My child is low sleep needs and has been since she was a baby. She dropped her nap at 2.5 in the middle of covid wfh hell and daycare closed. We did use melatonin then. I stopped after about a year mostly due to the unregulated nature of it. Prek was hell because of the enforced rest but we made it thru by telling her she didn’t have to sleep but she did have to be quiet and getting her books and such to look at during that time.
While my child is a girl, she has always been high energy. She is almost 7 and we are lucky if she can be asleep by 945, has to get up at 7. Summer is easy as she does a physical camp that wears her out. Winter is harder. We do try a session outside after school pick up before it starts getting dark earlier and there are usually friends at the playground. I have also been able to mentally wear her out with games like chess and when she was younger, working on reading. I do feel that with all the naps etc the early child environment doesn’t really accommodate kids who need less sleep and more activity.
Anon says
Sorry this should have been in response the the melatonin and exercise thread!
girls' clothes says
I think the answer is “no such thing” but: WHERE do I find clothes for this child?
My 8 year old daughter wears a girls’ size 14-16 (I am 6′ and my husband is 6’6″; she’s built like us (Ilona Maher but taller)). Even though she is so tall, she very much has a child’s body – adult sizes fit her strangely because she does not have adult proportions (no waist, hips, or bust); she has 8 year old proportions, just larger. She has outgrown the largest children’s sizes at Boden, Hanna Andersson and Primary. Out of all my kids, she has the most opinions about her clothes and likes to dress very traditionally childlike, think Boden, smocked dresses with ribbed tights, etc., and hates athleisure and jeans.
AwayEmily says
I just ordered some stuff from Vertbaudet, a French brand (because they were the only place I could find terrycloth bathrobes, which are hard to find in the US because of sleepwear flammability issues). They have that same vibe and go up to size 14. Uniqlo goes up to size 13, but I find their stuff runs really big.
Anon says
I’m not familiar with that exact brand, but in general French clothing is comically small on Americans and I would avoid it for anyone who’s tall. When we took my then 14 month old to Paris, I bought her some size 3T dresses without trying them on. When we tried to put them on her we couldn’t even zip them up. She was and is big for her age, but was comfortably fitting into 2T in most US brands at that point, so I thought 3T would be ok even accounting for the petite French. But I think she would have needed like a 5T at least. At barely a year old!
AwayEmily says
Ha, perhaps the French have wildly inconsistent sizing — we were there last summer and the 2T Monoprix clothes we bought were all comically *large* on my then-18-month-old (who has TUMMY FOR DAYS). She only now, at 2.5, just starting to fit into the 2T stuff we got for her.
Anon says
I’m not sure this is universally true across all French brands or more like how Gerber is known to run smaller than Carters. My average-sized kids had a lot of French clothes as gifts from friends and family as babies and toddlers (ranging from fancy brands to Monoprix brands) and we found them to fit generally the same way as US ones.
Anon says
Department stores might have more options? Or Amazon? I’m not a fan of the company and try to avoid it in general but would use it for a specific circumstance like this.
And ugh I’m sorry. My kid is very tall, not that extreme, but it’s still frustrating that she’s 6 and the clothes she fits into are very much made for tweens with the crop tops and stuff. She still likes the early elementary school “look” and I want her to look like a 6 year old because she is one, so clothes shopping is already an exercise in frustration.
Anonymous says
Our close family friend is in a similar boat to you. Athleisure would have been an easy fix but if your daughter isn’t into that look it won’t work. That’s mostly what our family friend has their daughter in. They had luck for outfits like dresses and sets at big chain department stores like JcPenney. And they have found some really cute outfits on Shein (but your view on shopping there may differ).
girls' clothes says
I asked my mom what she did for me (as I was also very tall!) – turns out my grandma sewed a significant number of my clothes from when I grew out of kid sizes until I was 12ish and could switch to adult clothes. I do not have those skills for my own daughter!
Anon says
At 5’7″ I’m the oompa-loompa of my family, but I was also the only one who could buy off-the-rack clothes. My cousins’ all had to have home sewn clothes to fit anything age-appropriate.
AwayEmily says
Oh, and not the most creative answer but Gap Factory/Gap.
Anonymous says
GAP is heavy on the jeans and has almost all cropped tops right now. I took my second grader, who has similar tastes to OP’s daughter, there for back to school shopping and there was nothing that she wanted. We had more luck at J. Crew, although they had a lot of crop tops too. But they had more in the way of frilly dresses.
Anonymous says
GAP online has a whole activewear line
Anon says
OP said her kid doesn’t like athleisure and mine doesn’t either.
AwayEmily says
Ah, maybe this is a Gap/Gap Factory difference (or an in person vs online difference)…we don’t have either one in our small city so I usually just do Gap Factory online since it’s cheaper than regular Gap.
AwayEmily says
And JCrew factory!
anonamommy says
Big department store websites are a good starting point – Macys, Dillards, etc. Also Lands End – they have a wide range of kids sizes and are more modest/childlike.
Anonymous says
Second Lands End.
Ok I asked our family friend who also has a daughter in a similar situation and she found some really cute outfits from Maurice’s line called Evsie. It says online 13/14 but their sizes run large.
Anonymous says
H and M had a line for 8-14 year olds which might work. They also carry a lot of dresses. Carters also has a size 14 that’s pretty large.
Anonymous says
How tall is she? What would she *like* to wear?
I was going to suggest athleisure since that’s what my kids live in but is we that’s not her style (if you can talk her into leggings, an oversized hoodie and converse she’d be golden!).
If she’s tall, there are some cute t shirt dresses that go up into that size range that she can pair with a jacket as the weather cools- old navy, gap, etc. she could rock maxi skirts and tops too.
Anonymous says
As a 5’6″ adult I can wear some kids’ 14-16 or XL clothes at Nordstrom and the Gap.
Anon says
My nieces are very, very tall and my kids are on track to be the same. They do well with Aerie and sometimes American Eagle. Also check out athleisure and athletic brands – Lululemon and less pricey brands. Maybe H&M. There may also be a house brand at Dicks that I can’t remember.
Anonymous says
I posted a few weeks ago on the sister site and someone recommended that I x-post here because there may be a local on the board: DH and I are considering relocating to Rochester with our elementary age kids as climate change refugees. We currently live in Texas and lately it’s just been too hot. We will get out for a visit soon, but what neighborhoods and areas should we be looking at during our visit?
Anonymous says
Which Rochester?
anon says
Sorry, NY.
anon says
New York
Anon says
We are hosting a barbecue this weekend at the park behind our house. It will be 4 families, including 6 young kids and 2 middle schoolers. We host this every year and usually the kids just play on the playground, and with the soccer ball, stomp rocket, etc. But this year I want to have a couple more activities. I will have some reusable water balloons and sidewalk chalk. Is there a simple art or craft activity that I could set out on the picnic table as an option? Maybe like watercolor painting or something?
Anon says
We went to a party with a tablecloth with pictures to color in and markers – that was easy and kept the young kids occupied.
Anonymous says
How about rock painting with those paint markers?
GCA says
How young are the kids? Will they need hands-on supervision for arts and crafts, or are they in elementary school and more likely to manage without a lot of help? For my 6yo’s birthday party at a park we did paper bag puppets using spare goody bags. I set out a stack of brown paper bags and markers, googly eyes, pre-cut paper shapes and glue sticks.
AwayEmily says
I think they will entertain themselves wonderfully given the playground and other outside toys — no need to make more work for yourself.
Anon says
Rock painting with those paint markers is a nice and easy craft